The flu shot making people sick

IGiveTheShots · Oct 18, 2012

Thank you Elvish. Its very hard to keep up with this thread and actually put thought into some of my responses in between managing my clinic. Life is so hard.

Aniroc · Oct 18, 2012

On topic, but a bit off topic.

While in nursing school I worked for a well known agency as a flu clinic nurse. I went to businesses that offered to pay for their employees immunization. When at a large telecom company, I was paired up with another nurse. During the lolls, we'd talk and I found out that she was really into holistic medications and treatments and didn't "believe" in vaccinations and would never get one herself. Here we were, shooting people up with a product she was adamant against. I asked her if it was ethical for her to be giving immunizations given her position. Her response was that she needed the money and it was an easy job. Honestly, I believe that given a choice the majority of people would and generally do get vaccinated. Though if they decide not to, I uphold their right to refuse but I still give all the information, benefit, consequences etc. But this woman? I could hardly stand to work next to her after I found this out. In fact I called the agency and asked not to be placed with her again. They asked me why and all I could say was they needed to ask her opinion on immunization and vaccination and that I was ethically torn working with her.

RNsRWe, ASN, RN · Oct 18, 2012

Aniroc: Hmmm, I'm a little divided within myself on this one. Overall, though, I think as long as she was able to give unbiased information, ALL the pros and ALL the cons--documented, not anecdotal conjecture that is so often offered up in these kinds of discussions, she should be allowed to do the job. The trouble would come in if she were to be side-stepping the pros in favor of the cons, or giving 'on the side' wink-wink kind of opinions.

I'm quite sure there are those who work in various areas of nursing who don't buy everything their job encompasses, but do it anyway. For instance, you may think that a patient's PRN pain meds are over the top, but since it is the patient's right to take them--they have been told the reasons for taking them and the potential side-effects--you give them. If a nurse personally would never want anything stronger than Tylenol for pain, does she then give up a job in which she administers IV Dilaudid? So....I guess I'm not as divided as I thought!

klone, MSN, RN · Oct 18, 2012

On topic, but a bit off topic.
While in nursing school I worked for a well known agency as a flu clinic nurse. I went to businesses that offered to pay for their employees immunization. When at a large telecom company, I was paired up with another nurse. During the lolls, we'd talk and I found out that she was really into holistic medications and treatments and didn't "believe" in vaccinations and would never get one herself. Here we were, shooting people up with a product she was adamant against. I asked her if it was ethical for her to be giving immunizations given her position. Her response was that she needed the money and it was an easy job. Honestly, I believe that given a choice the majority of people would and generally do get vaccinated. Though if they decide not to, I uphold their right to refuse but I still give all the information, benefit, consequences etc. But this woman? I could hardly stand to work next to her after I found this out. In fact I called the agency and asked not to be placed with her again. They asked me why and all I could say was they needed to ask her opinion on immunization and vaccination and that I was ethically torn working with her.

Nurses do lots of things they're personally opposed to. I know pro-life nurses who have taken care of patients post-abortion. I have assisted with hundreds of routine infant circumcisions and I'm extremely morally opposed to RIC. It's called being a good nurse and being able to put your feelings and opinions aside because it's not about YOU.

Guest343211 · Oct 18, 2012

Its required at the hospital I work at. We get a badge saying "I got the flu shot because I care", and those that get a doctor's note to opt out, get a different color badge that says "I wear a mask because I care".
I learned this week that its not the actual flu that causes the body aches and terrible feeling, instead its the ANTIGENS against the flu that cause the feeling! So in essence, the body aches and fever are a good sign that the shot actually works. I got mine for the first time a few weeks ago and had some aches, but it wasn't nothing out of this world.

To a large degree that is true--those antigen proteins can kick off a serious issue for those with issues regarding immune function--such as those with certain autoimmune dysfunctions. And it isn't something that automatically happens, necessarily, each time. One individual's immune system and immune system function does not equal another's. And an individual's immune system can be very capricious as well, such that at one point giving them even the same vaccine--which isn't the exact case with the flu vaccine may kick up a hyper response at one point but not another.

I think we need to be careful when we mess with people's immune systems. I am also not sure that the flu vaccine is any where near as effective as is purported.

Either way, I don't think it should be mandatory, on general principle--and on the idea that it may not be as protective by any means close to what they want people to believe. So it's like people are a part of a huge experimental study. People shouldn't be forced to put generally unknown entities into their bodies.

I got the TDAP b/c it made sense given the children's hospital environments, etc, and the fact that you can register immunity to say, pertussis after its administration. This may well not be true for the flu. Plus it always changes, and it isn't necessarily close to what our areas will encounter, flu-wise, since a lot of it is developed from Asia.

Too many variables in the flu vaccine--and one is forced to expose oneself to something that is far from a sure thing and could be problematic EACH AND EVERY YEAR. ??? Yes. I have some issues with that.

I am not telling people to get it or not get it. I am saying to do more reading--in a very open-minded fashion about it.

But people will likely just bend, b/c they need/want the jobs. That's kind of sad in principle too. I think if any place wants to mandate it, not only should they compile all the day and present it in written or electronic form (the basis as to why that particular institution is mandating it, scientifically--with a full statement) to all it's employees--individually. Then if the the employee has complications or lost time from work b/c of getting the flu vaccine, the hospital should pay for their lost time and whatever supportive treatment they need. Are they going to do that? No. So all the risk and liability on the employee, even though they were mandated by the employer to take it as a contingency of employment.

See, I detest one-sided deals--and that's more of the so called "balanced and fair--2 sided, lol" At-Will-Employment mentality. Again, it makes nurses and people wage slaves, where they have to compromise without any reasonable mitigation of the potentially bad situation from the employer's end. Yet they mandated it. They need to reconsider how valid the science is with respect to this; but not a days, we are living in a society that cares less and less for people as individuals with individual needs and rights. It's OK to give up one person's rights if we "think" (and that's a considerable if IMHO) it may benefit most others. But we don't really know if it in fact does benefit most others; and we don't know the long-term issues with doing this every year.

Really, I don't mention this to debate. It's just something to really think about. At the end of the day, you and the employers will do what they want. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be thought about very soberly in light of as much relevant information as possible.

RunnerRN2015, ASN, RN · Oct 18, 2012

Guess she plans to homeschool exclusively?

Kids don't need to be vaccinated to attend school. My nephews are not immunized and they both attend public school.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Oct 18, 2012

Thank you Elvish. Its very hard to keep up with this thread and actually put thought into some of my responses in between managing my clinic. Life is so hard.

I wasn't trying to be nitpicky; I was pretty sure of what you meant. It was more a clarification for other readers, especially lurkers who may or may not be nurses.

Columnist · Oct 18, 2012

Please try to keep in mind the topic of this post......... the fear of some nurses that the flu shot makes them sick.

The OP's first sentence states what she hopes the thread turns into.

It's not my intention to start a debate on the flu shot, but I'm afraid it's going to happen in this thread.

After her story about what happened in her hospital, she again states

I don't want a debate about someone's right to refuse the flu shot; however, I was stunned by the level of ignorance by these nurses. There are reasons to not get the shot, but saying "the shot makes me sick" is not one of them.

Several posts have gone off-topic and have even been a bit heated. You are free to disagree with anyone, but please keep your comments polite and constructive and ON TOPIC. Otherwise the thread will be closed.

Thanks for your cooperation.

tnbutterfly

admin

fulltrop · May 30, 2013

I was told by my Doctor that I could possibly have "mild" flu symptoms for a few days after the flu shot.

Fever and body aches are "mild flu-like symptoms", but of course does NOT mean you've got a mild case of the flu. Or got "sick" from the vaccine; rather, they're normal reactions TO the vaccine.

Is that not the textbook definition of "getting sick"? Seriously this is medical double-speak. "No you won't get influenza" they say but they fail to complete their sentence: "you may experience cold-like symptoms brought about by the vaccine". Apparently there is a difference between "getting sick" and "experiencing cold-like symptoms". Seriously, hair splitting on such an epic scale could be used to jump start a dormant nuclear reactor. When you're a patient there is no difference between "getting sick" and "experiencing cold-like symptoms". I get it there may be people doing their PhDs in Epidemiology who would disagree with me on academic grounds but they're not the people asking "Will the flu shot make me sick?" and the academic answer is seriously misleading to members of the general public.

I get annoyed when people say the flu shot won't make you sick because no one is saying the flu shot will give you influenza and the doctors damn well know this. What people are asking is "will I get a cold-like symptoms such as a runny nose, headache, cough, congestion, etc?" and the answer to this question is "possibly, depends upon the person". That's what people mean when they ask 'Will I get sick?" and instead of answering the question honestly, hairs are split about the definition of the word "sick" and this finely nuanced understanding is never explained to Joe Average on the street when he complains about a runny nose and cough after the flu shot. He's just told his symptoms have nothing to do with the flu shot, which is potentially a blatant lie.

If you look up the side effects of the flu shot, it states in black and white that cold-like symptoms may be experienced. Scientific fact. But instead people persist in lying by omission "I'll tell you that the flu shot won't make you sick (i.e. give you influenza), but I won't tell you about the cold-like symptoms. By the way, here's a information card for you to read at home that describes a variety of possible cold-like symptoms that I just said you'd never were at risk of experiencing 5 seconds ago. Have a nice day."

The communication on this really needs to be improved. I get it that not everyone will experience those side effects but some people do. People need to be given clear information so they can make a proper informed choice.

LisaNicolePN · May 30, 2013

Flu shots are mandatory in my place of work. When h1n1 first came out, I was in school, and didn't get the vaccine immediately. I contracted H1N1, and missed 3 weeks of school. The flu was the most miserable I've ever felt. Now, I do everything within my power to avoid the flu, vaccines included! A sore arm vs the flu... No question

LisaNicolePN · May 30, 2013

Side note: I was fortunate that they allowed me to continue in school since I missed 4 clinical days d/t H1N1...

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · May 31, 2013

The flu-like symptoms are a side effect of your body mounting its antibody-building response. It is NOT the flu, nor is it a cold.

The stem cells that mature into the components of your immune system are made in your bone marrow, and long and broad bones (think pelvis, femur, and tibia/fibula) are the largest receptacles of bone marrow in your body. When stem cell production is kicked into high gear (which is what a vaccine causes), these bones ache from the sudden overproduction of these cells - hence the body aches. An increase in B-cell production induces the histamine response - hence the runny nose.

It's the same principle behind why Neupogen/Neulasta make patients feel crappy and flu-ey: their long and broad bones' marrow has been kicked into overdrive.

It's also why you get achy when you DO get sick: the body has sent out a call for more infection fighters - and they all come from your bone marrow. It's where that high white count comes from.

FLU SHOTS DON'T MAKE YOU SICK. They can't (I'm not talking about live FluMist) - they're a dead vaccine. It's the body's natural response to a vaccine.

You're not sick. Your body is creating its immunity memory so you DON'T get sick in the future.