Professionals or "workers" - page 4

I am attending nursing school in Michigan, a very "union" state. I have recently moved here from Texas, a right to work state. There is a big political issue going on here about Right-to-work. And... Read More

  1. Visit  PMFB-RN} profile page
    0
    I should also mention that the US is the only country who still allows RNs to enter practise with a Diploma.
    *** Absolutly not the case. All of those countries you mentioned have plenty of diploma RNs practising.

    E
    verywhere else (Australia, Canada, the UK) a Bachelor's Degree has become mandatory for all new RNs.
    ***It's worth remembering that some of those countries have 3 year BSN programs that differ little from american ADN programs. I am a citizen of New Zealand (dual US/NZ) and hold a NZ RN license and used to hold a Queensland RN license and have worked as an RN in those countries.

    W
    hile many people argue against a BSN, the degree is one measure that allows nursing to be regarded as a profession. As a result, the working conditions for nurses are slightly better in these nations.
    *** Maybe but there are a lot of other things to consider. The differences in the national health care offered in those countries vs the for profit model used here account for some of the difference. My personal experience is that nurses are NOT treated better, though I can only speak from personal experience for Australia and NZ.
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  3. Visit  PMFB-RN} profile page
    0
    Quote from sapphire18
    This is news to me. Everywhere I've worked PAs are midlevel providers just like NPs.
    *** Yes they are, even those with associates degree.
  4. Visit  PMFB-RN} profile page
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    Quote from HouTx
    My primary disagreement with organized labor is the insistence on job tenure as the end-all & be-all. Nurses with higher levels of experience are always given preference, with very little attention to the quality or quantity of their work.
    *** That is absolutly not the case for the union hospital where I work. Maybe not all unions are the same.
  5. Visit  SleeepyRN} profile page
    0
    Quote from Ruby Vee
    The OP used some pretty inflammatory language against unions. That is not indicative of someone who is confused or is welcoming of dissenting opinions or advice. That is indicative of someone who lacks manners.
    Im thinking Im not understanding OP's post then. I admit I was wrong. Im pleading ignorance. I guess I dont get it, so Ill leave the topic alone. In my defense on another note, I did point out that I realized I didnt quote what I was referring to and corrected that. Anyway, like I said, I apparently misunderstood the thread from the beginning. Sorry
  6. Visit  alotusforyou} profile page
    7
    It shouldn't matter if you are a professional or not, if you work under management of any kind or as an employee, a union is probably always a good idea.

    It doesn't matter how knowlegable, educated or skilled you are, if you do not own the means of production or have extensive capital, you have little power without a collective voice.

    Some professionals, like physicans, may have enough power on their own because many have specific skill sets that take tons of money and time to aquire. They are not easily replaceable. But alas, nurses are easy to replace these days.

    I'm sure the powers that be are very happy to know that some think that unions are demeaning and only for the weak. That serves their agenda well, especially when it comes to exploitation.
    Last edit by alotusforyou on Dec 12, '12
    Ruby Vee, KelRN215, wooh, and 4 others like this.
  7. Visit  sapphire18} profile page
    3
    I have never heard of a "profession" as against higher education as nurses. It makes a lot of sense that someone with a 2-year degree can write orders, examine patients and document progress notes, H&Ps, and discharge summaries of critically ill patients while the 5-year degree-prepared nurse is following/carrying out those orders; basically working BELOW someone with less than half the education than they have. All I can say is...SMH.
    kabfighter, anotherone, and wooh like this.
  8. Visit  kissafish4} profile page
    5
    I've worked in Alaska which is unionized and now I live in Texas which is not. There is a HUGE difference in the quality of work conditions and compensation directly related to the nursing union. Not all professions need a union but nursing is certainly one that can benefit from it. Keeping nurse patient ratios to a manageable level is just one benefit not just for the nurse but also for the safety of patients we care for. The nursing union in Alaska assisted with lay offs, retraining if you were unable to perform your job anymore, negotiations for benefits, etc. It was a lot easier to actually be at the bedside nursing like we were trained to do because lower patient ratios and extra support staff etc. If someone feels it "demeans" the profession I don't really care because I know it keeps my patients safer and me at their bedside. Which is what I went to nursing school to do.
    wooh, nursel56, multi10, and 2 others like this.
  9. Visit  PMFB-RN} profile page
    0
    Quote from sapphire18
    I have never heard of a "profession" as against higher education as nurses. It makes a lot of sense that someone with a 2-year degree can write orders, examine patients and document progress notes, H&Ps, and discharge summaries of critically ill patients while the 5-year degree-prepared nurse is following/carrying out those orders; basically working BELOW someone with less than half the education than they have. All I can say is...SMH.
    *** Seems perfecly normal and right to me. I don't give a darn for the degree. To me what matters is what you know, not how you came to know it. Before I got my BSN I used to regularly precept nurse residents who had MSNs. Sure they had 6 years of "education" vs my 2 years (actually 9 months but it's a two year degree). They were still wet behind the ears know nothing brand new grads who needed to learn basic nursing skills from me. Does that seem wrong to you? Would it be better if the brand new graduate of a direct entry MSN program was supposed to precept the ADN RN with 10+ years of ICU experience? After all the new grad has 6 years of "education" (never mind that the first 4 years could have been in music) vs the experienced nurses 2 years?
    The associates degree PA and the BSN RN both spent about the same amount of time in school learning their trades.
  10. Visit  nursel56} profile page
    0
    Quote from sapphire18
    I have never heard of a "profession" as against higher education as nurses. It makes a lot of sense that someone with a 2-year degree can write orders, examine patients and document progress notes, H&Ps, and discharge summaries of critically ill patients while the 5-year degree-prepared nurse is following/carrying out those orders; basically working BELOW someone with less than half the education than they have. All I can say is...SMH.
    The issue is that for the most part, hospitals, state governments and the general public have not felt any type of urgency in the last 47 years to either separate RNs by scope, change the licensing exam or sound the alarm that the public is endangered being cared for by a mostly ADN workforce. That's not an insignificant factor.

    The major nurse lobbying groups have successfully framed the argument as either for or against higher education in general. There are many avenues that nurses can and do take to educate themselves every day, both informal (personal initiative and professionalism) and formal, like certifications. Once you are out the door with your degree, you're fighting it's obsolescence. Some nurses, regardless of degree, are lifelong learners and some put the degree on the shelf and do as little as possible to grow beyond that. Additionally, the further education a practicing RN may pursue is usually focused on her practice area, while the gen ed and other courses in a typical BSN course have little effect on their current practice, especially after they've been out of school for a while and know what they need to know more about.

    as to the topic: I used to be against unions. Now I am 100% for them, despite some misgivings. Wages and benefits have deteriorated massively since healthcare became primarily a profit-driven corporate machine. In short, they can't be trusted.
    Last edit by nursel56 on Dec 12, '12
  11. Visit  RNperdiem} profile page
    1
    I didn't realize unions were such a touchy subject. Why so much emotion?
    This would make an interesting topic of research-comparing nurses who work in union workplaces and nurses who work in right-to-work.
    I have only known right-to-work.
    anotherone likes this.
  12. Visit  PMFB-RN} profile page
    0
    Quote from sapphire18
    I have never heard of a "profession" as against higher education as nurses.
    *** B.S.! I have never heard any nurse say they are aginst higher education. I sure as heck am not, I have not read any anti higher education message here on AN. If you have please provide a quote.
    That said the fact is that higher education traditionaly has not been rewarded in nursing. Only very recently has there been any incentive at all and that incentive prety much disappears as soon as an RN gets her first job.
  13. Visit  multi10} profile page
    1
    RNperdiem, I agree this could make an interesting topic of research. Sign me up for that study. I worked in union states and non-union states. Working in California (union state) is bliss. We nurses get much respect and make a good deal of money. The work conditions are manageable. We are valued. Forget all the self-esteem talk. We are proud 'cause management can't push us around.
    nursel56 likes this.
  14. Visit  sapphire18} profile page
    1
    Quote from PMFB-RN
    *** Seems perfecly normal and right to me. I don't give a darn for the degree. To me what matters is what you know, not how you came to know it. Before I got my BSN I used to regularly precept nurse residents who had MSNs. Sure they had 6 years of "education" vs my 2 years (actually 9 months but it's a two year degree). They were still wet behind the ears know nothing brand new grads who needed to learn basic nursing skills from me. Does that seem wrong to you? Would it be better if the brand new graduate of a direct entry MSN program was supposed to precept the ADN RN with 10+ years of ICU experience? After all the new grad has 6 years of "education" (never mind that the first 4 years could have been in music) vs the experienced nurses 2 years?
    The associates degree PA and the BSN RN both spent about the same amount of time in school learning their trades.
    I'm not sure why a masters-prepared nurse would be working at the bedside (unless they couldn't find another job), but that's another issue. Show me a masters nursing program where your undergrad can be music, and you are done with the masters in 2 years. Please. I'm not sure how you get 2 years = 4 or 5 years as being "about the same amount of time in school." I get that real-world experience is invaluable learning, trust me, I do. But higher education still gives the student more knowledge than no higher education (or less of it).

    I'm not sure where I fall as to the union/right-to-work debate; does it "demean" nurses or not. I think not. When nurses have the same education and professional experience as doctors, engineers, and lawyers, then they can be on that level. I agree that people against higher education should not whine when they are not treated as professionals. In their eyes, this is a trade.

    I would love to have the protection of a union. My place of work isn't half bad though, so I've got it pretty good. I feel for those fighting with unfair working conditions.
    multi10 likes this.

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