Why don't CRNA's like AA's

TheBigBadDog · May 20, 2004

I would think some think tank would have done an economic study on it. I read on study that was done around 1995 that predicted that there would be a glut of RNs by 2002. Many of the predictions that author made never came true. The result was a bad forcast.

Sheri257 · May 21, 2004

I would think some think tank would have done an economic study on it. I read on study that was done around 1995 that predicted that there would be a glut of RNs by 2002. Many of the predictions that author made never came true. The result was a bad forcast.

In 2002, the U.S. Health Department did do projections on the general nursing shortage for the next 20 years. There are 800,000 vacancies projected nationwide, and while they didn't break it down by position, it's reasonable to assume that a fair number of CRNA vacancies would be included in that number.

:coollook:

NOPAIN · May 21, 2004

Please don't give up, I got in:

I have been a member of this forum for a year, and through out this year I have worked very hard to gain my acceptance into CRNA School. This week I got my letter of acceptance at University of Maryland, September 2004.

I would like to encourage those of you with this goal in mind to keep trying. I got rejected two times. Although I got sad after the rejections, this only gave me courage to try harder. I am a Hispanic nurse, and as a minority, I am proud to join such an elite group of professionals.

I want to thank all of you on this board for your inspiration, for your opinions, for your continued advice, and for answering my questions. :)

:balloons:

NOPAIN · May 21, 2004

I am sorry, I am so happy that I posted this on the wrong tread. I mean to start a new tread, I apologize

PA-C in Texas · May 21, 2004

It's the same old turf war. It has nothing to do with providing quality anesthesia. MD's fought against N.P.'s and CRNA's, R.N.'s fought against repiratory therapists and are now fighting paramedics, and CRNA's are going to fight AA's.

It's all thinly-veiled in noble causes like "patient safety" and "quality health care", but nobody really believes that.

SOCALRACERX911_RN · Jun 3, 2004

Sorry to be so egg-no-went, but what the heck is an AA?

ep71 · Jun 3, 2004

Sorry to be so egg-no-went, but what the heck is an AA?

An AA is an Anesthesiologist Assistant.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Jun 5, 2004

The only sensible "addition" to AA training would be a degree in nursing with experience. Its our nursing backgrounds that make us ready for anesthesia training. We're already seasoned veterans by the time we get into our anesthesia programs - without that intensive patient care background, we could never hit the ground running the first year in anesthesia training. We can already separate the zebras from the elephants. If you want to give anesthesia, just do what you have to do and get your undergraduate degree in nursing.

jwk · Jun 5, 2004

The only sensible "addition" to AA training would be a degree in nursing with experience. Its our nursing backgrounds that make us ready for anesthesia training. We're already seasoned veterans by the time we get into our anesthesia programs - without that intensive patient care background, we could never hit the ground running the first year in anesthesia training. We can already separate the zebras from the elephants. If you want to give anesthesia, just do what you have to do and get your undergraduate degree in nursing.

And it is the contention of AA's, and I know you fully disagree, that a nursing degree is not needed.

Although many of you think we come from just any old bachelors degree major, I honestly don't think any of my colleagues went into their AA program holding only a bachelors degree in religion, or philosophy, or Spanish. Pretty much all of us have science degrees of some sort, whether that be biology, chemistry, physiology, engineering, or (gasp) nursing. All of us have extensive undergraduate coursework (not freshman-level) in biology, biochem, physics, etc., which gives us what we feel is a better background to understand the "science" of anesthesia, the real nuts and bolts pathophysiology and pharmacology, etc. I know, I know, you disagree.

But please, give me a break with the "seasoned veterans" stuff. You act like all of you are in your 40's before you even consider anesthesia after 20 years in the ICU. The minimum requirement is a year of critical care (a fairly recent requirement as I recall - correct me if I'm wrong, I know you will). I know RN's who have been accepted into their anesthesia program months before they've completed a year in the ICU. As in many things it's not what you know, it's who you know.

subee, MSN, CRNA · Jun 5, 2004

Snotty, snotty. Actually I was 35 when I went to anesthesia school with a background in nursing administration. However, my program required organic chem which I took at 34 and also required physics, which I had as an undergrad already. I was not up in arms against AA's when I first heard of them over 10 or 12 years ago. I thought you were a well educated group and that some CRNA's were getting all atwitter about their salaries (an ugly quality in any human). However, now that I've been doing it for 20 years I think differently about the obligation to the patient, who is trusting you to be the best you can be at what you do, and I think the years I spent in nursing contributed to making better critical decisions earlier in my CRNA career. And oh no - I did not go straight from administration to anesthesia school - I quit administration and worked intensive care before starting school. Next time I think I'll be a nuclear engineer. I'll tell them that I don't need the basic undergrad engineering program because my two year program will include it ALL.

alansmith52 · Jun 5, 2004

ep71:

I have to agree that nurses do supervise lots of providers that are non-nurses.

PT, OT, RT, MA, phlebotomists, secretaries, techs,food service worker.

no one goes into a patients room without the blessing of the nurse. especially a critical care patient.

you used a word that you made up "nursing system" why don't you briefly explain what you consider the "nursing system". none of the workers I listed above are nurses and yet they are most certainly supervised by them. not that I tell an OT how to do her assesssment but I did tell her when she could or couldn't and what the pt was able to tolerate or not tolerate before she ever went in the room to conduct her "formality"

I personally don't want to ever supervise an AA because I don't want the liability of someone whose training I don't know. or havn't been through myself.

jwk · Jun 5, 2004

Snotty, snotty. Actually I was 35 when I went to anesthesia school with a background in nursing administration. However, my program required organic chem which I took at 34 and also required physics, which I had as an undergrad already. I was not up in arms against AA's when I first heard of them over 10 or 12 years ago. I thought you were a well educated group and that some CRNA's were getting all atwitter about their salaries (an ugly quality in any human). However, now that I've been doing it for 20 years I think differently about the obligation to the patient, who is trusting you to be the best you can be at what you do, and I think the years I spent in nursing contributed to making better critical decisions earlier in my CRNA career. And oh no - I did not go straight from administration to anesthesia school - I quit administration and worked intensive care before starting school. Next time I think I'll be a nuclear engineer. I'll tell them that I don't need the basic undergrad engineering program because my two year program will include it ALL.

Not snotty - just a different approach. And please, not again with the clinical comparisons. It's a turf battle, about competition and money and who gets what, and it always has been. You have the same battle with MDA's. DO's and MD's sometimes have the same arguments. PA's and NP's are the same. Orthopods with foot fellowships vs. podiatrists (there's a good one!) Competition and money. You know it - I know it. The difference is, we're not questioning your competence and skill as a smokescreen to the real issue, which ALWAYS comes down to money. You and many of your colleagues simple can't make the same claim.

What's changed in 30 years of AA's? Not much for us. Always a Masters Degree - always a med-school educational environment - always part of the anesthesia care TEAM (I know, lots of you don't like the concept - we fully supported it even before the ASA started liking us). We've practiced our craft competently and safely. We're not idiots. We're not English majors with laryngoscopes. We're highly educated (just like you), Medicare and private insurance alike reimburse for our services, and we love what we do. As our numbers expand, we simply seek the right to practice in other states.

What's changed in nurse anesthesia in 30 years? Or lets not even go back that far. How about 10-15? There was NO degree requirement. There was NO critical care requirement - that's an even newer "must have". Many of the schools granted NO degree in anesthesia because many of the schools were hospital-based only, with no affililiation with any kind of university that could grant a degree. Care to tell me how many thousands of CRNA's are practicing with no degree?

But guess what? I have no problem with that. I think it's GREAT that after that much time spend in education that you have the degree that goes with it. It only makes sense. I know hundreds of CRNA's, many of them with a hospital diploma and an anesthesia certificate, and they're GREAT practitioners.

You personally do not know us. You've never met one of us, much less worked with one of us. You've only heard about us from your association or this board. We're not the devil incarnate. We're not out to steal your job. I interview anesthetists for my group (70+, even split AA/CRNA). I hire new grads, I hire experienced providers. CRNA's with or without a degree. The main thing I want to know is whether or not you're competent. If you can do the job and work within our particular practice parameters, I'll not only respect you, I'll hire you!:) Call me and we'll chat.