TheBigBadDog

Math doesn't relate to the real world? Calculus is the basis for physics, physics is the basis for chemistry, chemistry is the basis for biology, biology is the basis for ALL medical sciences. Gee, I wouldn't want a CRNA filling my lungs with some gas who couldn't understand important concepts like Boyle's Gas Law because simple math was too difficult.

i don't understand your argument. you are saying that they can't afford mdas and aas? that doesn't make any sense, all louisiana had to do is increase the supply of providers and the price will drop for the service. if the combination of mdas and aas is more expensive than crnas providing the same service then those who are demanding the service will choose crnas, assuming all things other factors are equal. from the perspective of economics, it makes no sense to restrict the supply of service providers if you are trying to get the availability to increase and the price to decrease. you don't need to give crnas an incentive to move out to rural areas, if the supply of service providers is saturated in the cities then they will move to where there is demand for the service and the price is still high in rural areas.

i completely disagree! first, if you look at the admissions for crna the are required to disclose all previous education! second, why shouldn't we protect our jobs and labor markets? otherwise, you are on the race to the bottom! the worldwide supply of labor for any occupation will always cause an oversupply if you have no barriers! why, because the wages in the us are 10-100 times more then in other parts of the world. your idea that it is "just competition" is correct, this is the same "competition" that all of the major corporations in the world have learned how to avoid to make economic profits. that is why they are multi-billion dollar companies, without barriers competition would have long since have driven them out of business.

I would think some think tank would have done an economic study on it. I read on study that was done around 1995 that predicted that there would be a glut of RNs by 2002. Many of the predictions that author made never came true. The result was a bad forcast.

the biggest problem with the current battle between the mdas, crnas, and the aas is that no one group controls the supply of service providers. generally, groups regulate the supply of providers for that service, for instance, most professional groups have large input into the requirements for training, new schools, and licenses. they will try to avoid widespread shortages, because other people outside their field will undertake means to alleviate the shortage. currently, mdas are using the excuse that there is a shortage of providers as a means to manipulate the market by changing the rules on whom can provide service and under what conditions. the mdas and crnas may find themselves competing to add more providers to solve the current shortage but without planning. they may over supply the market with providers since each group will be trying to add members to gain political power and control. if each group adds providers and demand remains the same they may find their market in an over supply and falling wages. in my opinion, this is the recipe for disaster for all three groups; it defines the theorem that "excess profits breeds ruinous competion".

My logic was not flawed, I merely excluded a discussion about the demand because it detracts from the focus of the discussion, supply of providers. But it would not affect the outcome of the analysis, even if the demand increases, if supply increases the net result would be LOWER wages. Why? Because if the supply had been held constant and the demand increased then wages would have went yet higher. So, your original idea that somehow AAs don't affect the wages of CRNAs is absolutely wrong. Most everything in healthcare is about money and competition, concern about patient safety issues are always secondary. Patient safety issues are the smoke screen that healthcare providers use to keep thier wages high. That's why there are licenses to perform healthcare procedures, to limit competition! Licenses are a basic barrier to entry into a labor market. Patient safety is how you justify the license, just like a plumber, real estate agent, lawyer, etc. needs a license to protect your safety If you really are interested in solving the shortage of healthcare providers for anesthesia provide H1-B1 visas to MDAs, and they will flood the US market with more MDAs then you could shake a stick at. How many foriegn doctors do you think would be willing to work in the US for over $300,000 per year? But the AMA has enacted laws in all 50 states as barriers to prevent this from happening, so that they can control the supply of doctors and keep thier wages artificially high! The AANA just need to learn from the AMA and employ the same types of tactics, or they will suffer the consequences, lower wages! CRNAs and the AANA need to determine how to limit the practice of AAs, by requiring additional training or experiences of AAs to make them comparable to AAs or preventing them from practicing all together. REMEMBER COMPETITION IS ALWAYS BAD FOR THE SELLER (service provider)! Otherwise, the CRNAs are building a sand castle on the beach, and someday a wave of AAs will come into the market place and knock down thier castle of gold!

i don't think that you have sufficiently grasped the economics of this issue. the only thing that determines the price (salary) is supply (of providers) and demand (for the services). assuming that demand remains constant and the supply is increased the price (salary) will decrease. the amount of the salary decrease is determined by the slope and shape of the demand and supply curves. the supply is determined by a number of factors, but the barrier to entry into the market is probably the most important factor. what is a barrier to entry? it is something that prevents other would be suppliers of the service from competing against you. licenses, education, and experience are three of the most common and useful barriers that are used in the usa to prevent competition. if erode the barriers you will see lots of new entries into the market who are willing to provide this service, hence direct competition! new crna schools maybe a bigger threat to the existing salaries of crnas, but if the difficulty of achieving a crna certification, license, etc. are maintained then many of the would new competitors will not become a crna. there is one overriding economic principle that will affect crnas salaries, especially if it suddenly becomes easier to become a service provider, "excess profits breeds ruinous competion"! that means that the salaries of crnas climb higher more competitors will want to enter the market until there is glut of competitor and jobs will become scarce and wages will fall. these are basic economic that effect all professions. anyone who has a profession or a job should always be concerned about competition between service providers. i think the ama has shown that it understands these ideas, and it is willing and able to come up with ways to avoid competition. remember for the service provider competition is always bad!

I bought Princeton's Review Book, Kaplan's, and couple of other books. I thought they were almost the same material with different problems. You need one test book Princeton, Kaplan, etc. that you learn simple CAT testing techniques, other testing books for learning vocabulary and math that is not covered in the test books, and either the ONLINE CAT tests or GRE Test Book to practice taking GRE tests. I would recommend the online CAT tests that you can purchase from Princeton or Kaplan, because they are in the exact format of the tests that you will take.

I am interested in the CRNA vs. AA debate because it will FUNDAMENTALLY effect the future of CRNA practice. I think that it is really an economic question more than a medical concern. You can spend years learning a skill, but if there is no market for that skill you might as well have gotten a History or Philosophy degree. The big questions are: Can the AANA define thier profession? Do they have the political will to define and defend it? Unfortunately, the CRNAs seem to have a difficult time determining what the difference is between MDAs, CRNAs, and AAs. I am sure that I will get flamed for that statement. But they need a CLEAR and LUCID definition of what it means to be a MDA, CRNA, and AA, then they need to determine will they defend thier market place. Furthermore, the CRNAs need to be able to describe this to LAYMEN, because these are the people who will write the laws.

I recently finished Princeton Review's GRE online review, it costs $400! Was it worth it? NO! There was nothing in the review that you couldn't find in any of the GRE review books, and they are only $10 -$35 apiece. It was just material for Princeton Review's books put into an animated format with stupid cartoons that added nothing to understanding the actual material. In fact, I really hated Princeton's approach to Algebra in its math review, it consisted of telling you plug in each of the possible answers to determine the best one. This may be the best approach if you have never taken Algebra or any higher math class, but you probably shouldn't plan on going to graduate school. This part consisted of approximately 20% of the entire review material. I resorted to other review books for a quick Algebra review. The rest of the review material was better, but there are many books that do a much better job of presenting the material at a fraction of the cost. My recommendation is buying review books, and buying some practice tests in the CAT format so you get used to taking the test. You will figure out the testing techniques within a few study hours, and the rest is reviewing math and vocabulary to improve your score.

Then you need to read the State Laws and contact the medical boards in the different states, I HAVE!!!! But that is not the point, the point is that there is SIGNIFICANT BARRIERS PUT UP BY THE AMA AND THE ADA TO PROTECT THIER MEMBERS FROM COMPETITION FROM FORIEGN WORKERS, BUT NONE PUT UP BY THE ANA. IN FACT, IT IS EASIER TO COME AND WORK IN THE USA AS A NURSE THEN ANY OTHER OCCUPATION, WHICH CAUSES NURSING WAGES TO BE MUCH LOWER THEN THEY SHOULD BE!

This stupid idea has been propagated by hospitals and the other abusers of nurses. It is a matter of supply and demand, they only want to pay low wages so the supply is low. If wages go up the supply will increase! If the supply increases the wages will go down. The supply is low because most nurses leave this field because once they enter nursing they find out how crappy they are treated by hospitals, doctors, etc. Wages in other fields are much higher at the middle and upper experience brackets. The U.S. Congress has undertaken a WAR against the nurses in the U.S. to keep our wages low through keeping the supply of nurses excessively high! American nurses will return to nursing as the wages rise and hospitals change thier policies and treatment of nurses.

Actually, it varies according to each state, some require just the internship, some the last year or two, and some require the re-doing the full boat. That's true for dentistry too, except for Minnesota which is the only state that allows a foriegn dentist to just take the examination. Again, compared to the entrance requirements for nurses... The physicians and dentists have strong political lobbies and the nurses have, ummm the ANA, enough said.

The real issue here is how effective the AMA is at protecting its members for a flood of cheap foriegn labor, and how INEFFECTIVE the ANA is at preventing cheap foriegn labor from coming into the US. A foriegn doctor has to go back to medical school and start at zero, but a nurse only has to take a couple of tests and he gets full credit for all past experience. If you were wondering who will win the war over AA's is going to turn out, you can stop!