Not trying to stir up bad ideas, but...... - page 5

Trying to stay away from the SDN is like the forbidden fruit. And I know i am stupid for even caring....but i do. My program starts is 2 months...I have worked for years to get to this point and for... Read More

  1. by   gobucksCRNA
    Quote from sc17
    an-es-the-si-ol-o-gy (ns-thz-l-j)
    n. The medical specialty concerned with the pharmacological, physiological, and clinical basis of anesthesia, including resuscitation, intensive respiratory care, and pain management. MEDICAL specialty -- not nursing.

    Well sc, I guess you must be right b/c Webster's says so?! Are you kidding? Please explain the difference to me then b/t 'anesthesia practice' and 'anesthesiology' with respect to the above definition you were so kind to point out to us confused anesthetists.

    I'm not sure what type of backround you have. Your profile didn't specify, but I certainly hope you are not a CRNA or anywhere in the process of becoming a CRNA. My guess is perhaps you are a doc who feels threatened by the prospect that the term "anesthesiology" may not be strictly reserved for use by MDAs only.

    I'm tired of the bickering on this issue. I have never nor will I ever claim to be the educational equivalent of an MD, but I wholeheartedly agree with the previously mentioned assertions that the practice of anesthesia by CRNAs is equal to that of MDAs. Not ALL CRNAs are neccessarily equal to their MDA counterparts and VISE VERSA. I think studies have shown the general statement holds true though, as far as the quality of anesthetic care is concerned.

    Just FYI, my hospital badge says "Department of Anesthesiology". I suppose I should petition HR to change it to "Department of Nurse Anesthesia"...
  2. by   London88
    sc17

    Now that you have looked up an-es-the-si-ol-o-gy Why don't you look up nu-r-se an-es-the-sia.
  3. by   subee
    Quote from paindoc
    I don't think most CRNAs have the type of dual diploma/degree training as you, so kudos to you for going on and furthering your education. I don't know the percentages of CRNAs that train along side MDAs...that would be interesting to know...
    I dispute your figure that 60% of CRNA's have no advanced degree. I've been CRNA almost 25 years and can't remember any diploma programs existing at the time. I know diploma grads are out there but most are approaching their 60's. Besides, who's going to disparage diploma program where students worked around the entire two years - No summers off, Christmas vacations, etc.? Anesthesia school today is at least 15 months of all day, every day - in programs that have pre-anesthesia science courses first. I see plenty of nurses on the NP threads that are working while going to school but you don't see that in CRNA programs because there is no left over time because you're taking 18 credits a semester. What's you agenda? Don't you have something more thoughtful to say?
  4. by   skipaway
    Quote from sc17
    an-es-the-si-ol-o-gy (ns-thz-l-j)
    n. The medical specialty concerned with the pharmacological, physiological, and clinical basis of anesthesia, including resuscitation, intensive respiratory care, and pain management. MEDICAL specialty -- not nursing.
    I can find many definitions from different dictionaries that do not specify anesthesiology as a medical specialty.
  5. by   paindoc
    lol...I took the information from the top of this website that was posted until a few days ago. 57% of CRNAs do not have advanced degrees according to your website...
  6. by   Belle12
    Although I am not a CRNA (yet), I have been doing my homework on this topic...What I find interesting is that studies indicate no differences (morbidity&mortality) whether anesthesia is delivered by a CRNA or an MDA...The practice of anesthesia whether you label it the practice of "medicine" or "nursing" is safer now, than say 60 yrs ago...you can't argue with the statistical data comparing CRNAs to MDAs....My own opinion: I think a collaborative approach to EVERY aspect in healthcare is important...Everyone has varying backgrounds, education, experiences and brings something special to every situation. All people have strengths and weaknesses (Yes, even doctors have weaknesss!)
  7. by   jwk
    Quote from subee
    I dispute your figure that 60% of CRNA's have no advanced degree. I've been CRNA almost 25 years and can't remember any diploma programs existing at the time. I know diploma grads are out there but most are approaching their 60's. Besides, who's going to disparage diploma program where students worked around the entire two years - No summers off, Christmas vacations, etc.? Anesthesia school today is at least 15 months of all day, every day - in programs that have pre-anesthesia science courses first. I see plenty of nurses on the NP threads that are working while going to school but you don't see that in CRNA programs because there is no left over time because you're taking 18 credits a semester. What's you agenda? Don't you have something more thoughtful to say?
    Most of the CRNA programs 25 years ago were still certificate programs, did not require a BSN, and did not require a year of critical care. Just within a few hours of where I am now, certificate programs in Atlanta and Columbus, GA and Dothan, AL were still up and running. There are still plenty of diploma grads in their late 40's and early 50's - several in my own department.
  8. by   Roc_On
    [/QUOTE]CRNAs may be able to intubate a person and save a life while NPs may recognize an early case of meningitis and save a life. Both are necessary and have merit. Some CRNAs have as much as 2 years of training after their RN: Many NPs have the same.[/QUOTE]

    I don't think you realize the education involved in becoming a nurse anesthetist. Intubating, placing arterial lines, central lines, PA catheters, and nerve blocks are just many some of skills we are trained in. Yes, we also develop an expertise in an airway as well. However, as part of the 24-36 months of training, in addition to nursing school and at least one year of critical care (totaling up to 7 years), we are also highly educated on pathophysiology and recognize the deletrious effects of anesthesia on patients with comorbidities. Many times it is the CRNA, a graduate nurse (AKA advanced practitioner), who has to cancel cases because the CRNA recognized the risk outweighs the benefit of surgery and requires the patient further diagnostic testing, consults, or additional tx in order to tolerate the effects of anesthesia. My point.....the nurse anesthestist is not only trained in delivering anesthesia, the CRNA is also well educated on recognizing pathologic states. Furthermore, there are pain fellowships that are available for CRNA's in which they receive additional training in procedures and have the ability to request perscriptive authority
  9. by   paindoc
    Oh really? Pray tell what "fellowship programs"? I am not aware of any.
    I know of no other profession that considers working in a job without any educational credit to be part of their training. Critical care nursing is just that...it is a job. If it is an academic construct, then there would be requirements, specific studies, classes, and most importantly, a degree or college credit. Did you really receive college credit for working in a job that had no specific academic educational requirements?
    CRNAs are well trained and do not need to denigrate their profession or their education by attempting to prevaricate about the amount of their specific training (2 years of nursing undergrad and 2 years of CRNA master's degree training). Most RNs are not accepted into the BSN program until the second year of college. Four years is plenty of training for what CRNAs do. I would trust a CRNA completely to provide intubations, and even to place a-lines, but not on your life would I let a CRNA prescribe an antifungal agent, diagnose a renal disorder, or prescribe chemo.....they are not trained for this but a NP might be.
    CRNAs should be proud of who they are and what they do.
    FYI, I absolutely am aware of what CRNAs do as I have had them in my corporation and have trained them in academic situations.
  10. by   subee
    Quote from paindoc
    Oh really? Pray tell what "fellowship programs"? I am not aware of any.
    I know of no other profession that considers working in a job without any educational credit to be part of their training. Critical care nursing is just that...it is a job. If it is an academic construct, then there would be requirements, specific studies, classes, and most importantly, a degree or college credit. Did you really receive college credit for working in a job that had no specific academic educational requirements?
    CRNAs are well trained and do not need to denigrate their profession or their education by attempting to prevaricate about the amount of their specific training (2 years of nursing undergrad and 2 years of CRNA master's degree training). Most RNs are not accepted into the BSN program until the second year of college. Four years is plenty of training for what CRNAs do. I would trust a CRNA completely to provide intubations, and even to place a-lines, but not on your life would I let a CRNA prescribe an antifungal agent, diagnose a renal disorder, or prescribe chemo.....they are not trained for this but a NP might be.
    CRNAs should be proud of who they are and what they do.
    FYI, I absolutely am aware of what CRNAs do as I have had them in my corporation and have trained them in academic situations.

    Pain Doc: Four years of undergrad has been required since (I'm not sure - 1985?). I'm not sure what your point is. What CRNA wants to treat your toe fungus or do anything else besides adminster anesthesia? Have you had personal experience with a CRNA who wants to prescribe chemo? Please explain what your point is because I don't understand why you are going on about someone practicing outside their boundaries. As for critical care experience not coming out of academia - there are certainly plenty of nurses with graduate school degrees in critical care who teach other critical care nurses and design the exam for critical care certification. Would you want to be care for my a doc who didn't undergo a residency? Residencies don't have uniform, prescribed components - people go through them because they would be quite useless without any experience! Critical care nurses do have academic requirements - it's called a nursing degree and a license. Many large hospitals require BSN - is that not a requirement from which one could expect minimum competence. I've looked on the internet specifically for post-master's degree programs in pain management. There are a few out there but not designed for CRNA's in particular. They exist to provide pain management through out the hospital and home care situations for patients with acute or terminal pain conditions.
  11. by   deepz
  12. by   paindoc
    My points are:
    1. There are no fellowship programs for CRNAs in pain management. There are some courses available, but these are not fellowships. Fellowships are sanctioned by an accreditation agency or board....CRNAs have none availble in pain management.
    2. A BSRN does not take 4 years of classes in nursing. General education classes do not count and constitute approximately half the curriculum in most schools. Typically a BSRN has 2 years of training in nursing. That is quite sufficient.
    3. Working in an ICU may be a prerequisite for CRNA school just as having some experience in a hospital or medical field is a prerequisite for going into medicine. However, I would not consider time working as an orderly, cardiac monitoring tech, or nuclear technician as being part of formal medical education or training unless it came specifically with a certificate sanctioned by a medical school or accreditation body. Working as an ICU nurse may be part of education, but it is certainly not a formal part of CRNA training, otherwise it would simply be included in the CRNA curriculum. Part of what one learns when working in a job is valid, but much of it is not unless the job has formalized requirements for education such as residency programs in medicine. There are absolutely requirements that must be met by each medical resident or surgical resident or anesthesiology resident that are formal, and adopted by the ACGME. There are also formal requirements for a fellowship program in pain.
    4. My point regarding scope of practice is that CRNAs are great at what they do, but should not feel they have to resort to hyperbole regarding their CRNA education (7 years???? BS!!!!) Using those yardsticks for education, MDs would have 13-15 years of "training" and if they happened to work at the local nursing home all throughout high school, they would have even more. So my suggestion if CRNAs wish to be taken seriously would be to can the grotesque hyperbole regarding the many years of training they have, drop the inferiority complex, stop trying to compare yourselves to other nurses demeaning them for their perceived inferior education compared to yours, and be what you are....damned good practitioners of anesthesia. That is something of which to be extremely proud.
  13. by   deepz
    Quote from paindoc
    ....... if CRNAs wish to be taken seriously would be to can the grotesque hyperbole .......

    Grotesque hyperbole? You think you know grotesque hyperbole? Have you yourself done 300,000 cases, doctor?

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