Here's what AAs really think of CRNAs - page 22

And this comes from the PRESIDENT of the American Society of Anesthesiologist Assistants Again, assertions that AAs and CRNAs function at the same level -absolutely misleading. And, what's... Read More

  1. by   jwk
    Quote from Laughing Gas
    I am really not judging AA's.
    Sure you are!
    Quote from Laughing Gas
    Truth be told I have never even seen a real live breathing one.
    Finally, in your 3rd AA-bashing post, you admit it.

    Here is the only CRNA bashing you'll ever see me do, so make sure you get this:

    Virtually every CRNA that criticizes/bashes AA's has never met one, never worked with one, and has never worked with anyone who has. It's all hearsay - it's all "I know someone who knows someone else whose 3rd cousin worked with an AA..." Most CRNA's have no actual and factual knowledge of AA's, yet they continue to bash us and then make statements like your's "I am really not judging AA's".

    At least have the integrity to be honest and say "I don't really know anything about them, and I don't know anyone who does, but I hate them anyway, even though I may say I'm not judging them".

    And just so we're clear - I work with CRNA's every day. Unlike you, I work with both types of providers and can speak to the pluses and minuses of both. I am in a practice with more than 70 anesthetists. There are top-notch CRNA's in my department, as well as top-notch AA's. I have nothing but respect for the CRNA's I work with. I have never impugned their qualifications or abilities.

    I'll be glad to debate you on the merits, with facts. Leave the hearsay and the touchy-feely nurses-care-more crap out of it.
    Last edit by jwk on Nov 14, '04
  2. by   Laughing Gas
    I never in any post bashed or said anything negative about AA's. You're pretty quick to put connotations where you see fit. I was letting people know what is good about CRNA's. If you feel inadequate for whatever reason, you made it abvious on a personal level by telling all readers that you are unable to hear nice things about CRNA's without assuming your profession is being belittled. Have some pride. I never bashed AA's, I tried to advance my profession. Conversely you both bashed CRNA's and did nothing to educate me on AA's.




    I'll be glad to debate you on the merits, with facts. Leave the hearsay and the touchy-feely nurses-care-more crap out of it.

    This is both insulting and ignorant. This statement proves that you are actually very unaware of what your CRNA co workers are all about. Before you continue to spout off about what you don't know, listen to others and try not to be so ruled by your emotions.

    If this 27 page debate has been beaten to death, why are you still posting?

    Work on your insecurities and anxieties. Your level of aggression will probably decrease. I wish you the nothing but luck and peace, as I will take your advice and not return to this discussion.
  3. by   jwk
    Quote from Laughing Gas
    I never in any post bashed or said anything negative about AA's. You're pretty quick to put connotations where you see fit. I was letting people know what is good about CRNA's. If you feel inadequate for whatever reason, you made it abvious on a personal level by telling all readers that you are unable to hear nice things about CRNA's without assuming your profession is being belittled. Have some pride. I never bashed AA's, I tried to advance my profession. Conversely you both bashed CRNA's and did nothing to educate me on AA's.




    I'll be glad to debate you on the merits, with facts. Leave the hearsay and the touchy-feely nurses-care-more crap out of it.

    This is both insulting and ignorant. This statement proves that you are actually very unaware of what your CRNA co workers are all about. Before you continue to spout off about what you don't know, listen to others and try not to be so ruled by your emotions.

    If this 27 page debate has been beaten to death, why are you still posting?

    Work on your insecurities and anxieties. Your level of aggression will probably decrease. I wish you the nothing but luck and peace, as I will take your advice and not return to this discussion.
    No insecurities or anxieties here. Feel free to make direct answers to the questions I posed if you return.

    And the only bashing was the statement about CRNA's that don't know anything about AA's but what they've heard or read, but feel free to run them down anyway. Did you see any other bashing besides that statement? I simply responded to your statements/assumptions that were incorrect or based on hearsay.
  4. by   user69
    Let's not forget that many of the new CRNA students served the absolute minimum caring for patients before starting there programs. About half of my class has said that they went into nursing just as a path to the CRNA job. I know that in the past nurses worked many years bedside before going into a CRNA program, but that is not the norm today.


    As far as the comment about "Wall-Mart" healthcare and it being cheap. Let's be realistic here. We are talking abut "less expensive" and not "cheap" alternatives. With starting salaries for both AAs and CRNAs being around 100K, the word "cheap" just does not apply. This is in no way meant to say that we are not worth the money that the job pays.
  5. by   athomas91
    ok - i have stayed away from this discussion for a looong time - frankly because noone is gaining anything useful from it anylonger...
    but that last post was the most generalized ignorant (in the sense of unknowing) statement i have heard from an educated individual in a very long time. so....let me get this right - a lot of "your friends" went into nursing just for the purpose of advancing to CRNA status - and that is the MAJORITY?!?!?!? i think not! yes - there are those who do that - but in my class of 22 there is maybe 1 person who did less than 4 or 5 yrs in nursing prior to school...
    so to openly state that the norm is minimal patient care prior to school is ridiculous and insulting to our profession. So - if you would like CRNA's and SRNA's to not discuss the lack of patient care prior to any medical training then i would imagine one would like to back off of the aforementioned statements.
  6. by   stbernardclub
    iF YOU CAN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT A R.N. WITH 11 YEARS IN ICU CAN BRING TO YOUR PRACTICE, OR AS YOU SAY "TEAM",MAN YOU ARE REALLY LIVING IN A CLOUD.THINK ABOUT ALL THE CODES, MEDICATIONS, PHYSICIAN AND OTHER EMPLOYEE INTERACTION THEY HAVE HAD. WOW, THATS ALOT TO INGNORE OR BLOW OFF!
    Quote from georgia_aa
    Hi Everyone,

    I was getting concerned that this thread was growing increasingly hostile. I was worried that all I was succeeding in doing was fanning the flames which was not at all my intent.

    To address the CRNA from Grady. Some of what you said is absolutely true. The restrictions placed on CRNA/AA practice are the norm in the Atlanta area. Very few anesthetists (I am referring to both CRNAs and AAs when I use this term) perform regionals in MD run practices. His observation that anesthetists don't do central lines may have been true at Grady, but we do them every day at my center. At St. Joseph's hospital, a major cardiac center, all anesthetists may insert central lines after demonstrating proficiency at it. I do know that there were some restrictions placed on AAs in Ohio that are in the process of being resolved, but in Atlanta I do everything except regional blocks. In Macon, I know for a fact that AAs are doing lots of regionals.

    As far as salary goes, yes my 160k was earned by working lots of OT. I have a young family and am willing to take on all I can get. My base is 115K and I typically work 2 doubles a week plus one weekend a month call from home. When I stated my salary I was not boasting as DEEPZ called it, but merely pointing out that we do not accept lower pay than CRNAs which has been commonly stated.

    I am absolutely committed to the anesthesia care team approach. I believe that it is the safest way to receive an anesthetic in the US. If my patient is not doing well or something happens surgically and I just need help, I like knowing that I can have 5 board certified anesthesiologists in the room within 60 seconds. I know, I know, your patients never have problems and nothing unexpected ever happens right?? To me, it's not about showing everyone that I can handle everything myself, but doing what is safest for the patient. Having more than one person in the room skilled at anesthesia during those critical moments is just intuitively more safe to me. The reality is that the MDA doesn't come into the room and take over and shove me out of the way, but rather we work together as a team to get the patient past whatever the problem may be. It is a collaboration where our skills and knowledge complement one another. The line that an AA will do nothing without being told is a total bunch of crap. We can just agree to disagree on that point and call it a day.

    Again, if you read my posts I have never said anything that could be construed as CRNA bashing. That being said, I do believe that your leadership is hurting you on the national level. In every instance that we have sought legislation allowing us to practice, the AANA has argued that we are not qualifed by virtue of not being nurses first. They completely ignore the fact that 60-70% of every AA class did indeed have healthcare experience before enrolling in AA school (resp therapy, EMT, and yes even a few RNs being the most common). In each and every case, the legislators travelled to Atlanta, Ohio, or other states in which AAs practice and saw with there own eyes AAs and CRNAs coexisting peacefully and doing the EXACT SAME JOB. In many instances CRNAs train AA students and vice versa (shocking!!). So in light of what they see with their own eyes, the AANA rhetoric just doesn't ring true and you come off as a group with a huge chip on your shoulders just trying to protect your turf.

    Please, I want to keep this friendly. I really think that most of you don't really know the first thing about us and I'm just trying to dispel some of the falsehoods. I know for a fact that you don't have to be a nurse to be a talented, skilled, compassionate anesthesia provider. What you DO have to be is intelligent, analytical, able to think fast on your feet, and have the ability to funtion in a fast paced, and at times very tense environment. If you don't possess those attributes, nurse or otherwise, you will not be a good anesthetist.

    BTW, I did get into medical school (3 acceptances) but chose AA instead. I was a little older and decided not to invest the amount of time it would take to get there. I'm very happy with my choice.
  7. by   heartICU
    Quote from user69
    Let's not forget that many of the new CRNA students served the absolute minimum caring for patients before starting there programs. About half of my class has said that they went into nursing just as a path to the CRNA job. I know that in the past nurses worked many years bedside before going into a CRNA program, but that is not the norm today.
    Yeah, I would agree with this, partly. When I was in my BSN program, about half my class also said they wanted to be a CRNA. Then again, we were also 18 years old and didn't even know what the inside of an operating room looked like. My point is, a lot of people say they want to do this or that, for various reasons. The number of people who actually follow through with this is much smaller. The number of RNs I graduated with who still have the goal of anesthesia is very small...I can count them on one hand.
  8. by   SnowymtnRN
    Had to weigh in here! I am an ICU nurse with the requisite number of year's experience and believe I have some knowledge on this matter. As much as 2 years ago I became increasingly interested in complicating my life by either going to CRNA School or medical school. As the former would provide a very good living and the latter would too, I had to ask myself " were do I want to be?" Truth is that in speaking with surgeons, of whom I know many, I have come to the conclusion that they don't really care. MDA Vs CRNA. All they want is that their patient are "gassed" safely. The MDA's in my hospital don't want any competition. AA's and CRNA's are prohibited from coming here. We are the regional trauma center in Wyoming! Does this make any sense at all? So while everyone is bickering back and forth about CRNA and AA the physician are deliberately obstructing pts right to safe, cost effective anesthesia delivery. Resolve this matter.... The AA Vs CRNA controversy will fix itself. Let's have a clear, national standards conference on anesthesia. Lets outline exact scope of practice for all disciplines. Lets implement these guidelines nationally and get on with the business of safe anesthesia delivery for our patients. :angryfire
  9. by   jwk
    Quote from SnowymtnRN
    Had to weigh in here! I am an ICU nurse with the requisite number of year's experience and believe I have some knowledge on this matter. As much as 2 years ago I became increasingly interested in complicating my life by either going to CRNA School or medical school. As the former would provide a very good living and the latter would too, I had to ask myself " were do I want to be?" Truth is that in speaking with surgeons, of whom I know many, I have come to the conclusion that they don't really care. MDA Vs CRNA. All they want is that their patient are "gassed" safely. The MDA's in my hospital don't want any competition. AA's and CRNA's are prohibited from coming here. We are the regional trauma center in Wyoming! Does this make any sense at all? So while everyone is bickering back and forth about CRNA and AA the physician are deliberately obstructing pts right to safe, cost effective anesthesia delivery. Resolve this matter.... The AA Vs CRNA controversy will fix itself. Let's have a clear, national standards conference on anesthesia. Lets outline exact scope of practice for all disciplines. Lets implement these guidelines nationally and get on with the business of safe anesthesia delivery for our patients. :angryfire
    Issues of licensure and scope of practice have always been left up to the individual states, and I doubt that will change.
  10. by   deepz
    Quote from SnowymtnRN
    ...... The MDA's in my hospital don't want any competition. AA's and CRNA's are prohibited from coming here. ......

    Prohibited only in the sense that MDAs have their ways of monopolizing resort-type areas. Although often contrary to anti-trust law, these behaviors are widespread. It's only local politics, not a legality.

    deepz
  11. by   jwk
    Quote from deepz
    Prohibited only in the sense that MDAs have their ways of monopolizing resort-type areas. Although often contrary to anti-trust law, these behaviors are widespread. It's only local politics, not a legality.

    deepz
    Deepz, are CRNA's able to go in and aggressively challenge the policy in a case like this based on an anti-trust or restraint of trade argument? Are cases such as this simply too expensive to attempt to fight or litigate or are they successfully fought in similar instances?
  12. by   deepz
    Quote from jwk
    ..... Are cases such as this simply too expensive to attempt to fight or litigate or are they successfully fought in similar instances?

    CRNAs have successfully prosecuted some cases under the Sherman Antitrust Act, but yes indeed, it gets very expensive very fast and sometimes the prevailing party gets NO cash payout, only the satisfaction of winning those elusive clinical privileges.

    deepz
  13. by   NeuroNP
    I just found this thread, so please forgive me if I wake up a sleeping dragon!

    I just wonder, what is the big deal? I would like to be a CRNA one day, but a lot of this animosity is making me rethink things. I personally don't care if some MD has to sign off on my work, so long as I can find a good job doing what I enjoy.

    I did a summer experience in college where I shadowed Anesthesia in the OR at the local teaching hospital and at a private hospital. I worked with residents, attendings and CRNAs at the teaching hospital and MDAs and CRNAs at the community one. There were CRNAs at the community hospital and there was one of the MDAs who was "in charge" of the OR (I mean, all the ORs - they took turns). He was available for consult in the PACU (so someone didn't have to come out of a case...), the floor/ICU (pre-op consults) and also "supervised" the CRNAs. He basically popped in for induction and emergance and was available if needed. He said, "I've worked with these guys and trust them to do a top-notch job." So, he let them pratice pretty much on their own except as required by law.

    What I'm getting at is, I wouldn't have any problem with that. It seems like an ego thing. (I don't mean to sound offensive) If there's more to it, please educate me. From what I'm reading, I see a lot of "I worked hard enough and I want my respect" kind of thing. I can certainly understand that, but in the end, isn't that just a matter of pride? Again, not to sound offensive, but is there more to it?

    As far as the public not respecting me, to the extent that that hurts my employement (ie public outcry for unwarrented restrictions based on erroneuos information) that's fine. I know it's not true, my collegues know it's not true.... (BTW, off the subject, but when you introduce yourself to pts, how do you identify yourself? Most of the people I saw - MDAs and CRNAs alike - said something like, "Hi I'm Bob from anesthesia." Never saw it as an issue whether or not they id'd themselves as MDA or CRNA)

    I don't understand how the AA-CRNA thing hurts CRNAs in the job market. Isn't "a lot of AAs coming in taking our work away," the same as "more CRNAs graduating"? Would CRNAs be equally upset if there was a sudden increase in people wanting to be CRNAs?

    That same MDA that I worked with that sumemr was the one who told me, "it's not the intials after your name that make you good." He said that he would gladly step away from a intubation he couldn't get and let a CRNA try and vice-versa.

    Please understand that I am not trying to offend, simply understand what all the fuss is about as I decide a career path for myself.

    bryan

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