Yet more MSN vs. MBA advice needed again

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I participated in an MSN vs. MBA type thread when I was just finishing my BSN 3 years ago. Some questions answered, but still more cloudy areas as I continue on in nursing 3 more years later.

It seems like a lot of responses are of the "It depends on what you want to do" variety and that I shouldn't pick a degree without knowing what the job is like before I get it.

But do I really need to be working as a nurse manager or administrator with my BSN first? I followed a manager around during my BSN completion program, and now that I often work in the charge nurse position and have constant interaction with both my manager as well as the house administrator all day, I feel that I have a pretty good grasp of what those roles are and what they entail.

I'm happy as a staff nurse for now but plan on moving to a more administrative role another 5-8 years from now.

I'd rather get started now and have the degree completed before I even attempt to apply for such positions but is this the wrong approach?

I am very interested in learning more about the business side of healthcare. It's the only type of masters that I've had any ambition in completing.

There is no longer any doubt at this point that I have no desire to teach or get another clinical type of degree such as NP or CRNA.

So for me, I believe it's going to be either:

1. MSN with an administration/health systems management type of focus

2. MBA generic or MBA with a health care emphasis or minor

3. MHA or MHSA (Masters in Healthcare Administration or Masters in Health Systems Management)

These are the degrees I see at work every day for people in administrative type roles. If there are others that I should consider, please feel free to enlighten me, but there are already so many options.

For those of you who have the same type of goals/aspirations, why did you choose one degree over the other?

I see so many managers/administrators/directors with the same jobs yet have different advanced degrees, why are some of you getting MSN's and some getting MBA's and MHA's? Why are some of you doing dual degree MSN/MBA's? Is there a big advantage in having both or is this overkill?

Too many choices and need clarification of advantages/disadvantages and when is it the right time to pursue.

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Suggestion: Do an MBA rather than an MSN.

The reasons for this suggestion is that though the MSN is curtailed to nursing, specifically, you already have a minor in health, being an RN and already know the environment. Having a stronger foundation in marketing and business, the MBA, (generally) would be better.

I went the NP, DNP route and what a JOKE. Not to mention the pay doesn't support what the education cost. I have 10 years of school and the best i am able to do is to be on the floor which does not cover the $150, 00 in loans i had to take out for my worthless education. The DNP was strong on the research aspect, sort of, but no one knows how to teach it well, as it is so new. But guess what? I have never been able to use it.

With an MBA you would be able to be more marketable in any area.

Also, i read your post regarding the unions and the DFW area from awhile back. I recently came to TX this year (2010) and i have had exactly what you described done to me. It effectively ran me out of nursing.

If you are interested, i would be interested in your feedback. Nurse Jail

Thanks, and happy holidays.

-grace

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Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.

I initially started an MSN/MBA combo program. I dropped the MBA part after just a couple of business classes because I hated it!

However, my advice is the MBA/MSN combo because that opens up many doors where an MSN is required.

Good luck with whatever choice you make - let us know too.

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Thanks for the comment. What specifically did you hate about the business classes?

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If you are thinking of working at a hospital that is a Magnet facility or one seeking Magnet status, then I would recommend a MSN degree. Magnet certification expects that nursing leaders (including managers) have graduate degrees degrees in nursing.

While I do know some unit managers with only BSN degrees at the first time a hospital gets Magnet, the standards rise for each Magnet recertification. These managers have been told to have MSN degrees by 2012 or lose their jobs.

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Look at the hospitals you want to work at, specifically the education of the people whose jobs you want. Each place has its own preferences. Some prefer nursing majors, some don't care what the masters is in. Keep in mind many nurses you work with will not respect you as much if your degree isn't in nursing, no real reason for this just personal bais of many nurses. I personally think an MBA would be better. At my hospital all management is required to have MSN's. With the addition of DNP, in a few years that may look good. I am starting a DNP program, the schools claim this is suppose to be great for administrators, but you would have to talk to people who have finished to see if it actually helps. Or if it is just a resume filler. Though a DNP does not give you any more income than a master's right now. I seriously doubt that will change. A DNP looks great on paper, but it would not add any more skill sets to what you already have--I am refering just to clinical skills. It is suppose to make you better at applying research to practice, and creating policy.

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Look at the hospitals you want to work at, specifically the education of the people whose jobs you want. Each place has its own preferences. Some prefer nursing majors, some don't care what the masters is in. Keep in mind many nurses you work with will not respect you as much if your degree isn't in nursing, no real reason for this just personal bais of many nurses. I personally think an MBA would be better. At my hospital all management is required to have MSN's. With the addition of DNP, in a few years that may look good. I am starting a DNP program, the schools claim this is suppose to be great for administrators, but you would have to talk to people who have finished to see if it actually helps. Or if it is just a resume filler. Though a DNP does not give you any more income than a master's right now. I seriously doubt that will change. A DNP looks great on paper, but it would not add any more skill sets to what you already have--I am refering just to clinical skills. It is suppose to make you better at applying research to practice, and creating policy.

Wow!

Thank you all for your recent comments and wisdom on a thread I started last June that sat dead until very recently. Thank you all!

I quoted Bryan because of the respect comment. As far as respect goes, I am not going to choose a degree based upon whether other nurses respect it or not. I want to be respected for what I can bring to the table, not the letters after my name.

I can't stand nurses who expect to be respected for their RN licenses, BSN's, MSN's, DNP's, or what have you, yet fall short in actual job performance whether they are a staff nurse, educator, manager, or director of what have you. You may have impressive letters after your name, but what are you actually doing for the organization to make it a better place for both employees and patients?

This was not intended to be a criticism of your post as it was very informative and really made me think. Also you pointed out that it was just a perspective to consider, not necessarily your own personal opinion.

As I pointed out earlier, my hospital has managers, directors, ect. who have a wide variety of degrees MSN, MBA, MHA, etc. so that's why I'm so confused as to what path I need to take. I've been told that they only care about having a masters period, no preference as to which discipline.

But I get what you are saying about the MSN.

I recently attended a conference at a hospital in Austin where the MSN is king, so I have seen that type of environment. I could perhaps end up at a facility like this where the MSN is an expectation.

But you are talking to someone who took the long route in nursing (LPN, then ADN, then BSN) so to me yet another nursing degree seems like another chore vs. a non-nursing degree seems more like an adventure.

I actually look forward to interacting with other students who are not nurses and come from other backgrounds.

Again, great comments from everyone and it's really helping me to think about what I'm doing.

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Specializes in Nephrology, Cardiology, ER, ICU.

I didn't like business classes because they seemed to be focused on non-people things: ie statistics, business plans of how to get/keep your business going, etc..

I do have to say now though that I wish I had had more business classes.

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I didn't like business classes because they seemed to be focused on non-people things: ie statistics, business plans of how to get/keep your business going, etc..

I do have to say now though that I wish I had had more business classes.

I get what you are saying and I must be the opposite of what you were going through. The thought of even hearing the term let alone doing yet another project on "evidence based practice" or doing yet another research project on the effectiveness of prophylactic antibiotic therapy is just not appealing and makes me think that I wouldn't be successful in an MSN program.

I looked at many MSN programs in nursing administration and the classes that had to do with human resources management, leadership in healthcare, employee relations, budgeting, finance, etc. are things that nursing school did not teach and I'm interested in learning about.

Ideally, An MSN/MBA dual degree would be my best option and take away from the agony of choosing. But I have yet to find one that suits my needs/abilities as far as cost, distance, etc. go.

Every MSN/MBA dual program that I've looked into is around 60-63 credits give or take. I could get an MSN and an MBA separately for around 72 credits (36 credits for each individual program) with the luxury of choosing an individual MSN and MBA program that I really want so I'm failing to see how doing a dual degree saves a lot of time or money.

Kind of like doing an LPN program before an ADN RN program. You spend 12-18 months of LPN training depending on your school only to be given about one semester of credit toward the RN program. Really no incentive for doing the LPN program first.

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Wow!

Thank you all for your recent comments and wisdom on a thread I started last June that sat dead until very recently. Thank you all!

I quoted Bryan because of the respect comment. As far as respect goes, I am not going to choose a degree based upon whether other nurses respect it or not. I want to be respected for what I can bring to the table, not the letters after my name.

I can't stand nurses who expect to be respected for their RN licenses, BSN's, MSN's, DNP's, or what have you, yet fall short in actual job performance whether they are a staff nurse, educator, manager, or director of what have you. You may have impressive letters after your name, but what are you actually doing for the organization to make it a better place for both employees and patients?

This was not intended to be a criticism of your post as it was very informative and really made me think. Also you pointed out that it was just a perspective to consider, not necessarily your own personal opinion.

As I pointed out earlier, my hospital has managers, directors, ect. who have a wide variety of degrees MSN, MBA, MHA, etc. so that's why I'm so confused as to what path I need to take. I've been told that they only care about having a masters period, no preference as to which discipline.

But I get what you are saying about the MSN.

I recently attended a conference at a hospital in Austin where the MSN is king, so I have seen that type of environment. I could perhaps end up at a facility like this where the MSN is an expectation.

But you are talking to someone who took the long route in nursing (LPN, then ADN, then BSN) so to me yet another nursing degree seems like another chore vs. a non-nursing degree seems more like an adventure.

I actually look forward to interacting with other students who are not nurses and come from other backgrounds.

Again, great comments from everyone and it's really helping me to think about what I'm doing.

I think getting a degree outside of nursing would help you bring more to the profession. I don't personally think credentials by themselves should bring respect either. I think nurses in general go overboard with the amount of credentials some try to cram behind their name. I think a MBA sounds like it would do a much better job at administration, make you much more versatile than a MSN in administration.

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I think getting a degree outside of nursing would help you bring more to the profession. I don't personally think credentials by themselves should bring respect either. I think nurses in general go overboard with the amount of credentials some try to cram behind their name. I think a MBA sounds like it would do a much better job at administration, make you much more versatile than a MSN in administration.

Thanks again for the advice. This is why I'm seeking advice outside of my own environment as far as colleagues, managers, educators, etc. on campus go.

Those who have advanced degrees in nursing all seem to strongly advocate for my getting a nursing degree, some have even stated that it is "stupid" for me to not get anything but an advanced degree in nursing. Those with MBA's, MHA's, etc. all seem to say that I have enough nursing credentials and it's time to branch out and learn the business side of healthcare.

You have an advanced degree in nursing yet you are supporting my getting an MBA.

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Specializes in cardio-thoracic perioperative.

Which program did you decide on? I share a very similar dilemna as yourself. Where to next? I am completing BSN May 2010. Am 41 and been RN for 8 years.The thought of another nursing degree alone is not that motivating. I always thought clinical, NP, was where I would go but I am hesitant now. After finishing degree the salary does not coorelate with increased responsibility and liability. I do very much enjoy clinical nursing however also have a strong interest in business side of things. I work in cardio-thoracic perioperative. I have thought NP, then thought msn/mba and maybe np certificate, or sole mba in hcm looks very appealing. The later programs are available on-line which is attractive to me. Now DNP is option to non-nurses as long as you have mba or mha. Phew! All these choices don't make it easier. I think a lot of prior threads hit on it. Where are you looking to be with the degree and what role are you ultimately pursuing guides choice. I am finding it extremely difficult to decide. From what I see I don't necessarily aspire to be a nurse manager but I think any of these degrees would be stepping stones to higher level admin/director positions. My employer currently pays 100% tuition so the door is open.

Any thoughts and advice in helping to figure career path?

Thanks

Mike

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