I am a new grad FNP. Long story short, I found a doctor who is looking for an NP who can work at his busy Internal Med clinic. However, when I initially met him, he told me that he would prefer me to shadow him/volunteer at the clinic for a month or two. Basically, he is asking me to do "clinical hours" (just like in school) for free. He would like me to observe how he practices medicine and at the same time wants to know if I would be a successful NP at his clinic. He said that he hired NPs/PAs before (without shadowing experience with him) and they all did not do well. He believes that this volunteer experience will benefit both of us.
He did not promise me the job. All he said was that the position is currently available. He alse stated that "Worst case scenario, if i do not work there, i will gain the valuable knowledge and experience by following him." I like the practice. I wish I would be able to work there someday. But at the same time, i would like to hear opinions from NPs regarding this matter. I feel like it's unfair to do clinicals again (after already graduating) without any type of compensation or even verbal promise that I am getting a job offer.
Question is: Would you be willing to do clinicals (again) for 2 months without any promise of getting the job? For free? He requires two to three full clinic days per week.
Thank you very much in advance! I would appreciate any input.
I wanted to like him and hope that he was simply ensuring that you were going to be a competent provider but no way would I tolerate this situation. Let him find someone who was born yesterday to tell that load of bull to. Unbelievable but better you find out now before getting stuck working for this asshat.
1. My work is not free. I volunteer for several agencies but I decide when/how much time to devote to this endeavor
2. You would not be covered by any type of insurance during this "shadowing" - too much liability
3. If you are shadowing in this practice, it limits the amt of time that you can search for a real job
4. I wouldn't care for this physician's attitude in general - too arrogant and not mindful of my time
So...nope wouldn't do it.
Yes..., thank you! The above reasons are the reasons why I didn't feel good about volunteering. However, I though maybe I could meet him halfway. Maybe volunteer for a day or two. But i don't think it made a difference
Why didn't you do clinicals at his practice during school? If you don't take this opportunity perhaps refer him to your school to consider that option with a current student. In any event I'm wondering if he is concerned that he will hire you and you will suck. Despite many states being at will employment it can be difficult to get rid of employees that don't work out so perhaps that is a concern.
How capable are you going to be coming out the gate? That might sound offensive but the truth is new grads abilities can really vary. There are people based on their experience and skills who will not require as much orientation or time to become a valued provider and it sounds like he wants that kind of person. Not a problem if that is you but if not this probably won't be a nurturing environment for you so that is something to consider.
Like traumaRUs mentioned I only do volunteer work for free so I would ask him to consider doing a short term compensated position with a contract. He can have you shadow him a few shifts then start seeing patients as indicated while you are getting paid, getting an employment experience and he isn't stuck with you if he feels you aren't a good fit. If you do well you can re-negotiate at the end of the contract. Good luck!
Great points, Jules A! I did not do my clinicals there because I didn't know him until now. I heard that he was hiring NPs and so that's why i sent my resume to the manager. I understand I am a new grad. Of course I am little scared. But i believe i can manage and with support from other providers, im sure i will survive. However, i wouldn't know what i don't know. Yes, new grads differ in capabilities.
I'm like 99% sure that the doc has a whole lot of overdue paperwork. I've seen some cheap guys offering international medical grads looking for "American" recommendations just such "valuable experience". They ended up doing old dictations and digging for missed narc records 7 days a week for months, and were not paid for doing that.
I wouldn't consider it even for a second.
Yes! Like AHA forms that they want me to be trained for free. See my post above for updates. You are right!
No way. I'm insulted for you. A few months of free work, and he's trying to sell it to you as some great opportunity? Give me a break! I'm a new grad and never had that experience when interviewing. Considering the cost of student loan payback, you'd think he'd be a bit more "in touch" with the reality that 99% of the world is unable to shadow unpaid for that long. I would pass immediately. It's not your burden to bear that he had issues hiring the wrong people in the past, or that his standards are so impossibly high the people he hired couldn't meet them. UGH.
Yes, i heard this from him again. That he hired people before... "Especially NPs" that didn't last. He said they couldn't handle it. But i don't think so... There must be more to it.
Meh. Nope. I would be okay with a day or two of shadowing someone. Mainly just to see if the pt population was the kind I was looking for and to make sure I could get along with the other provider. But more than that for free? Nah. I'd need some pretty powerful desperation to do that. I've been offered a similar thing before when I was fresh out of school, just so you know. A guy who has NPs round in nursing homes would only hire you as a new grad after you have done your required 720 hrs of supervised practice (MS BON requirement for new grads). In order to get these hrs done, he would cover you with insurance but not pay you per hr. So you work for free but are covered with liability ins for about 4 months. Ha freaking ha. No thanks. Just telling you this so you know you're not alone in hearing an offer like this.
Good to know, thanks! Kinda sucks that I am experiencing it though.
A potential employer who expects you to work for free for up to two months with no guarantee of anything makes me very suspicious. First of all, who can afford to offer their services for free for that long? I also have to question the motives of someone who feels the need to observe you for that long before making a decision on your employment. This person also seems more than a little arrogant, saying that you will "gain valuable knowledge and experience" even if you get kicked to the curb after providing two months of free labor. It's as if you are supposed to be grateful even if you are told no after two wasted months.
Way too many red flags for me.
Yes, i know. Thanks for the reality check. More red flags today. See update above.
No. Just no. It would set a bad precedent for you. Assuming he did hire you, what else would he expect you to do for free? Extra hours? Night and weekend call? All your patient callbacks and labs/imaging/consult review time? Nope. He has a lot of nerve asking you to work that long for free, with no promise of a job! Put him in your rear view mirror. :)
Yes, thank you! Seems to be what's happening here after our talk today
Yeah, this sounds really sketchy. I did a four hour unpaid job shadow for my current job. It was mostly so I could see how the clinic ran and basically to ensure that this was a place I wanted to be employed. I thought that was more than enough time to determine the general flow of things.
This physician seems awfully entitled, as though you should be jumping for joy with all of this "experience". Personally, I learn best by getting my hands dirty. So following him around probably isn't going to do you much good. If you do end up seeing patients, you aren't covered by any type of liability insurance unless you purchase your own plan which will set you back about $2000.
Yes, you are right. I finally decided to follow him for about two days. That was boring! I was thinking that whole time that i can't believe I am doing clinicals again after doing 600 hours of clinical in school. Now he is making me do training for AHA forms.... Unpaid.
Well if you really like internal medicine or any offers for shadowing ...I think you should job shadow the physician but that's the thing...just shadow...don't do any paperwork....he can ask you, quiz you on differential diagnosis, don't do any procedures. I actually did some after I graduated FNP school and before taking my AANP exam because I wanted to know how the practice is ran. I wanted to know EXACTLY what I am getting into and if I was a good fit with the staff and the clinic needs and what I need to assess my weakness on. However, I did not do it for 2 months. I only did it for 3 weeks for like twice a week from 9 to noon. I also wanted to know how my supervising provider/boss treats his other employees and patients because if he didn't treat them well then that would be a red flag. I guess it depends on what matters to you most. To me it mattered that the clinic I work for has the same mission and values in terms of patient care as I do. Trust and Respect among colleagues is important. It is important that you know you can trust your supervising physician when you are unfamiliar with certain topics that he/she will back you up or be willing to be a resource for you. It is scary if you are a new grad and have no support.
I thought the same way too... So that's why I shadowed for about 2 days. However, this shadowing doesn't seem like just shadowing anymore. This feels more like unpaid orientation. I really want internal med. And i know the environment supportd new grads. But should i do free work for a month just to get hired at this place? Like u said, i would be ok if i only really honestly shadowed him. However, i was asked to see patients, do paperwork, do AHA training as a volunteer.
Jules A, MSN
8,864 Posts
I wanted to like him and hope that he was simply ensuring that you were going to be a competent provider but no way would I tolerate this situation. Let him find someone who was born yesterday to tell that load of bull to. Unbelievable but better you find out now before getting stuck working for this asshat.