Why the double standard.

[RN2364]

So I work in a busy ER. When a male nurse has a female patient who needs a pelvic, foley or straight cath the men automatically come to us female nurses without even a conversation with the patient / family. Even if the patient is unconscious they won't even try.

On on the other hand if I have a make patient who needs and exam, foley, straight cats or STD swabs I have to do these myself. If I ask a male nurse (even the ones who just had you do a female foley) they look at me like I am not only crazy but I am being lazy and trying to get out of work and push it off onto them.

I dont understand this double standard. It has happened in every hospital I have worked in. Maybe someone could explain the thinking.. Also is their a good way to approach this with a male colleague without hurting feelings or pointing fingers.

One other thing... does this logic or thinking apply to the lesbian nurse. She she not be required to do these for the same reason the male nurse is not....?

any insight is extremely valuable

[toomuchbaloney]

FiremedicMike said:

So this entire situation is our fault because of the actions of a few?  Interesting..

 

The situation is a result of our rape tolerant culture.  Yes. 

[FiremedicMike, RN, EMT-P]

toomuchbaloney said:

The situation is a result of our rape tolerant culture.  Yes. 

I'd be curious to know how you define or show examples of a "rape tolerant culture", but either way, do you feel that this "rape tolerant culture" is the fault of men? 

You are quick to dismiss the experiences of male nurses posting here who have nearly all experienced the fear of being accused of battery and placed blame on extrinsic factors.  Have you ever experienced this fear?  What qualifies you to dismiss these feelings?

 

[toomuchbaloney]

FiremedicMike said:

I'd be curious to know how you define or show examples of a "rape tolerant culture", but either way, do you feel that this "rape tolerant culture" is the fault of men? 

You are quick to dismiss the experiences of male nurses posting here who have nearly all experienced the fear of being accused of battery and placed blame on extrinsic factors.  Have you ever experienced this fear?  What qualifies you to dismiss these feelings?

 

Brock Turner was an example of rape culture.  Would you like more examples? What about Dr Nassar or Cheng? 

https://www.statnews.com/2018/02/05/larry-nassar-doctors-sexual-assault/

Yes, men have created a culture that tolerates rape, excuses it, and has punished victims of rape when they have come forward. 

I am a male nurse.  

I'm just as qualified as any other member to comment on this topic.  

[FiremedicMike, RN, EMT-P]

toomuchbaloney said:

Brock Turner was an example of rape culture.  Would you like more examples? What about Dr Nassar or Cheng? 

https://www.statnews.com/2018/02/05/larry-nassar-doctors-sexual-assault/

Yes, men have created a culture that tolerates rape, excuses it, and has punished victims of rape when they have come forward. 

I am a male nurse.  

I'm just as qualified as any other member to comment on this topic.  

All 3 of those examples are men who were literally convicted of their sexual crimes.  Not good examples based on your own definition, as those rapes weren't tolerated or excused and the rape victims were not punished.

 

[FiremedicMike, RN, EMT-P]

toomuchbaloney said:

I'm just as qualified as any other member to comment on this topic.  

So then I'm curious - have you experienced the same fear and double standard as the rest of us, but you're okay with it because you feel it's our own fault?

Honestly, excusing a double standard is never okay, I'm not sure how you've addressed this cognitive dissonance in your own mind.. 

[toomuchbaloney]

FiremedicMike said:

All 3 of those examples are men who were literally convicted of their sexual crimes.  Not good examples based on your own definition, as those rapes weren't tolerated or excused and the rape victims were not punished.

 

They are excellent examples. Turner was, famously, given a mild sentence because the judge didn't want to harm his promising future.  Nassar was allowed to abuse scores of women while mandated reporters ignored the evidence and description of his assaults for a long time.  

Meanwhile, you seem to be pretending that rape victims haven't historically been abused by the very system that they must report to in order to effect some type of justice.  You ignore the univestigated rape kits and the way that rape victims were treated in courtrooms.  We're supposed to believe that rape is underreported because women don't care, not because the process is brutal and unkind to the victims. 

1 in 5 women experiences sexual assault in her lifetime.  Maybe more.  

[toomuchbaloney]

FiremedicMike said:

So then I'm curious - have you experienced the same fear and double standard as the rest of us, but you're okay with it because you feel it's our own fault?

Honestly, excusing a double standard is never okay, I'm not sure how you've addressed this cognitive dissonance in your own mind.. 

I don't operate based upon fears.  I operate and practice based upon facts and evidence and safe procedure.  

I am experiencing no cognitive dissonance.  

[FiremedicMike, RN, EMT-P]

toomuchbaloney said:

They are excellent examples. Turner was, famously, given a mild sentence because the judge didn't want to harm his promising future.  Nassar was allowed to abuse scores of women while mandated reporters ignored the evidence and description of his assaults for a long time.  

Meanwhile, you seem to be pretending that rape victims haven't historically been abused by the very system that they must report to in order to effect some type of justice.  You ignore the univestigated rape kits and the way that rape victims were treated in courtrooms.  We're supposed to believe that rape is underreported because women don't care, not because the process is brutal and unkind to the victims. 

1 in 5 women experiences sexual assault in her lifetime.  Maybe more.  

1.  Do you know that Turner's sentencing was because of his "promising future" because you have inside information on the trial?  Legal experience?  Direct expert understanding of sentencing guidelines?  Or are you just basing that statement on how it "feels".  Turner is a sex offender for life, his "promising future" is over.

2.  Nassar had numerous red flags that were ignored, you feel that indicates people were allowing him to rape because they thought it was okay.  I tend to go with the notion that people are both incompetent and afraid to stand up (feel free to do your own research on the bystander effect, groupthink, normalization of deviance, etc).

3. Don't ever put words in my mouth, your second paragraph is purely emotional and has no bearing on this discussion.

4.  A terrible statistic, but again, completely irrelevant to the fact that male nurses feel both embarrassed and fearful when asked to perform certain tasks on female patients.

[FiremedicMike, RN, EMT-P]

toomuchbaloney said:

I don't operate based upon fears.  I operate and practice based upon facts and evidence and safe procedure.  

I am experiencing no cognitive dissonance.  

If you truly have no fear of ever being accused of inappropriate behavior as a male with female patients, then you are ignoring society.

[toomuchbaloney]

FiremedicMike said:

1.  Do you know that Turner's sentencing was because of his "promising future" because you have inside information on the trial?  Legal experience?  Direct expert understanding of sentencing guidelines?  Or are you just basing that statement on how it "feels".  Turner is a sex offender for life, his "promising future" is over.

2.  Nassar had numerous red flags that were ignored, you feel that indicates people were allowing him to rape because they thought it was okay.  I tend to go with the notion that people are both incompetent and afraid to stand up (feel free to do your own research on the bystander effect, groupthink, normalization of deviance, etc).

3. Don't ever put words in my mouth, your second paragraph is purely emotional and has no bearing on this discussion.

4.  A terrible statistic, but again, completely irrelevant to the fact that male nurses feel both embarrassed and fearful when asked to perform certain tasks on female patients.

1. I'm familiar with the judge's sympathies.  https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jun/14/stanford-sexual-assault-read-sentence-judge-aaron-persky

2. Yes. In a rape culture the signs of unacceptable sexual conduct is often overlooked, excused or ignored. That's more common when the perpetrators are considered to be esteemed in the community or to hold some position of authority.  

3. I didn't put words in your mouth, but your emotional outrage is noted. 

4. It's a terrible situation where male healthcare professionals feel uncomfortable because so many of their female patients have been sexually assaulted or abused by males in their communities.  

"Why the double standard."

I guess you don't agree with my answer to that "question". 

 

[toomuchbaloney]

FiremedicMike said:

If you truly have no fear of ever being accused of inappropriate behavior as a male with female patients, then you are ignoring society.

Correct, I never practiced as a male nurse fearing an accusation of sexually inappropriate contact.  That references decades of experience in a really wide variety of settings.  I similarly, did not practice in fear of getting sued or prosecuted in some fashion.  I value evidence based practice that puts the needs of the patient in the forefront.  

In your opinion I ignored society.  In my opinion, I simply provided professional nursing care in a way that was above suspicion and was easily defended, while being sensitive to cultural realities.  I believe in a patient centered approach to nursing care.  

[FiremedicMike, RN, EMT-P]

Dress it up however you like, you are excusing discriminatory behavior based on the behavior of the overwhelming minority and a fictitious culture that excuses rape.

I'm done with this conversation.