By design, a monopoly produces a different kind of worker. Unwilling to have their wages capped and freedoms restricted, the best inevitably leave. Mediocrity, unfortunately, gives rise to fewer malcontents and thus is a prerequisite for stability in the system. Put it this way: if a socialized system wants to survive, it must expunge the most driven and gifted from its midst. When wages, moreover, are tied to a negotiated deal with labour, rather than, in the case of a competitive market, to the individual physician's performance, the position of the mediocre practitioner is further reinforced.
Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.
You showed the wages for ONE area, just like I did. That isn't a country by country comparison and in order for it to be meaningful you have to consider cost of living. Nurses in California make a lot more than nurses in Mississippi, but that doesn't necessarily mean we live better on it. Like I pointed out, I'll never be able to buy a home with my salary here. My 25 year old colleague from Mississippi was able to buy one within weeks of starting her job out there. Which one of us is richer?
Anyways, I don't know why this topic always comes up. The US already has a semi-socialized-semi-private system and that's how it will stay because that's what the people want. Most Canadians I know have no desire to replicate the US system up there.
Actually, someone else reported a number for wages in a specific area, claiming it to be similar to what nurses were making in Canada. I simply showed otherwise.
One point I've made is that it doesn't matter if you socialize the system, the cost of living will not be affected, doesn't matter if it's Canada or the US, so it's not really functional to attempt to discredit the amount of money that a nurse is making in a private system based on it's purchasing ability, because a nurse working in a socialized system faces the same challenges. Another point I've made is that regardless of geography, nurses in a more privatized system make more.
Maybe it's better expressed this way; nurses in a socialized system do not have some magical increased purchasing capacity just because they work in an entirely socialized system.
And in spite of the Canadian preference for their system, there is still problems in Canada, and one of the solutions that the Canadian citizen has been using is crossing the border, and another solution that the Canadian gov't has been implementing has been relaxing the laws on privatization. Enhanced privatization is improving Canadian health care whether the majority of them want it or not, be it border crossing or changes in legislation.
. Another point I've made is that regardless of geography, nurses in a more privatized system make more.
.
How did you prove this exactly? Nurses in Victoria probably make more money than a nurse in Arkansas. A nurse in Ontario will make more than a nurse in New Mexico. That would seem to prove that blanket statement to be invalid.
Wages have nothing to do with which system nurses work in, they have to do with supply, demand, cost of living and the strength of those negotiating the wage. Privately run hospitals have just as much incentive to keep wages as low as they can.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
"Wages have nothing to do with which system nurses work in, they have to do with supply, demand, cost of living and the strength of those negotiating the wage."
Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.
You realize that nurses living in the entire province make that same wage though don't you? It does suck for the nurses in Toronto (I was one of them for a while:)), but it's great for nurses who live in Peterborough, Brandon, Thunderbay, etc. It's the same in my home province. The nursing wage won't make you rich in Vancouver, but it's pretty damn good in Kamloops, Kelowna or Prince George.
That's incredibly unfortunate for Toronto nurses. BTW, I made 25.50/hr five years ago working in a non-union hospital in Pittsburgh, a city where the cost of living is fantastically lower than Toronto.
Seven months ago I started a new job in the south; I now make 36.83 per hour in a non-union hospital, where they pay for my health insurance (minus copays), and will pay for a portion of my college tuition. I've been an RN for only five years.
One point I've made is that it doesn't matter if you socialize the system, the cost of living will not be affected, doesn't matter if it's Canada or the US, so it's not really functional to attempt to discredit the amount of money that a nurse is making in a private system based on it's purchasing ability, because a nurse working in a socialized system faces the same challenges..
I never said socialization of medicine changes the cost of living in an area. I am saying it's an important thing to consider when comparing who makes more. You can't say "Nurses in California make more money than nurses in Canada, so their wage is better" unless you consider the impact their cost of living has on the purchasing power of their wage.
Trust me, I've lived and worked in both places. You can make more money in the US than in Canada. You can do that and still wind up with less in your bank account at the end of the day too:). I make a good living in California and really love it down here but I'm not naive enough to think I can afford what my friends can back in Canada, despite my higher wage. So, should I really be so thrilled to make more money than them when it buys me less? Luckily I don't live here for the wage.
That's incredibly unfortunate for Toronto nurses. BTW, I made 25.50/hr five years ago working in a non-union hospital in Pittsburgh, a city where the cost of living is fantastically lower than Toronto.
Seven months ago I started a new job in the south; I now make 36.83 per hour in a non-union hospital, where they pay for my health insurance (minus copays), and will pay for a portion of my college tuition. I've been an RN for only five years.
You've got a good job then:) New grads at my current hospital start at $27 an hour and I'm pretty sure the cost of living is fantastically higher than in Pittsburgh:) We get paid partly in sunshine I think...
I live in the uppermost part of California in a rural community and the homes here are so high that most local folks are priced out of the market. All you rich So. Cal and Bay Area folks retire and come up here and pay the high prices w/o a blink of an eye.
I live in the uppermost part of California in a rural community and the homes here are so high that most local folks are priced out of the market. All you rich So. Cal and Bay Area folks retire and come up here and pay the high prices w/o a blink of an eye.
I know . . . off topic.
I'm enjoying the conversation . . . . keep going.
steph
I hear the same thing from those in Nevada and Arizona. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. I just can't imagine spending 3 or 4K a month on a mortgage!!! My rent is now $1700 and that's more than enough. It's still worth it to live accross the street from the beach:)
I hear the same thing from those in Nevada and Arizona. Unfortunately I'm not one of them. I just can't imagine spending 3 or 4K a month on a mortgage!!! My rent is now $1700 and that's more than enough. It's still worth it to live accross the street from the beach:)
I know . . . my niece and her husband spend a fortune on a mortgage in a regular old neighborhood in Sacramento and their mortgage is about $3000.
That is nuts.
I must be old . . . . my parents first home in Red Bluff was a 4 bedroom home in a nice neighborhood and it was $11,000. You can't even buy a car for that.
Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.
How did you prove this exactly? Nurses in Victoria probably make more money than a nurse in Arkansas. A nurse in Ontario will make more than a nurse in New Mexico. That would seem to prove that blanket statement to be invalid.
Wages have nothing to do with which system nurses work in, they have to do with supply, demand, cost of living and the strength of those negotiating the wage. Privately run hospitals have just as much incentive to keep wages as low as they can.
This is simply mud in the discussion. "Probably" is a word that supports nothing. What I did was compare similar areas (i.e. Toronto and White Plains). Not an entire state (Arkansas) and a city (Victoria). And I suspect that a nurse in NM sees a lower wage than a nurse in Ontario, but a more accurate comparison would be to take a look at your immediate neighbors in NY and Michigan, and just across the lake in Ohio and Pennsylvania.
Would you suggest that on average, the nurses in the Canadian socialized system make more than nurses in the more privatized American system? If so, I would like to understand, given the nursing shortage in both countries, why there is a remarkably higher percentage of Canadian RN's crossing the border to work? What is the incentive driving this process?
And if wages are only a function of supply, demand, cost of living, and negotiation, why are all Ontario nurses paid the same regardless of where they work? Isn't the cost of living much higher in Toronto compared to the rest of the province?
Privately run hospitals have a GREATER incentive to keep costs down; they don't have the privilege of asking for more money from the gov't if they perform poorly. They also have other incentive; to provide services to as many people as possible in order to improve revenue. A socialized system does not have that incentive.
Specializes in Cardiac Surg, IR, Peds ICU, Emergency.
I never said socialization of medicine changes the cost of living in an area. I am saying it's an important thing to consider when comparing who makes more. You can't say "Nurses in California make more money than nurses in Canada, so their wage is better" unless you consider the impact their cost of living has on the purchasing power of their wage.
Trust me, I've lived and worked in both places. You can make more money in the US than in Canada. You can do that and still wind up with less in your bank account at the end of the day too:). I make a good living in California and really love it down here but I'm not naive enough to think I can afford what my friends can back in Canada, despite my higher wage. So, should I really be so thrilled to make more money than them when it buys me less? Luckily I don't live here for the wage.
Now we are getting somewhere...almost.
Here's what I'm saying; you can change the system, but you will never change the cost of living. I believe at the end of the day that socializing the American system will result in lower wages for nurses, and they will have an even lower purchasing power because the cost of living will not change. So I ask, do you actually believe that changing the system will improve nursing wages?
And here's what your friends back in Canada cannot afford on their Canadian wage, and it's the ability to live in California.
Privately run hospitals have a GREATER incentive to keep costs down; they don't have the privilege of asking for more money from the gov't if they perform poorly. They also have other incentive; to provide services to as many people as possible in order to improve revenue. A socialized system does not have that incentive.
Single payer is NOT socialized medicine. The provider stays independent. Private physicians, clinics, hospitals, PT, chiropractic, dentists, optometry, skilled nursing stay the same.
The government will not run the hospitals, clinics, or others.
The county facilities and Beverly Hills hospitals will be paid paid by a single payer. No more hospitals going to the government to get money for indigent care.
.thumb.gif.041bac93584716f6dc9882dcd8cf500a.gif){kind=small}
DarrenWright
173 Posts
Actually, someone else reported a number for wages in a specific area, claiming it to be similar to what nurses were making in Canada. I simply showed otherwise.
One point I've made is that it doesn't matter if you socialize the system, the cost of living will not be affected, doesn't matter if it's Canada or the US, so it's not really functional to attempt to discredit the amount of money that a nurse is making in a private system based on it's purchasing ability, because a nurse working in a socialized system faces the same challenges. Another point I've made is that regardless of geography, nurses in a more privatized system make more.
Maybe it's better expressed this way; nurses in a socialized system do not have some magical increased purchasing capacity just because they work in an entirely socialized system.
And in spite of the Canadian preference for their system, there is still problems in Canada, and one of the solutions that the Canadian citizen has been using is crossing the border, and another solution that the Canadian gov't has been implementing has been relaxing the laws on privatization. Enhanced privatization is improving Canadian health care whether the majority of them want it or not, be it border crossing or changes in legislation.