What happens to your integrity when you go into management?

Crumbwannabe · Dec 17, 2004

And another thing...

Being as nursing has been described as 'quasi-military' in it's structure (see some of the textbooks) I pose these questions...and I'd like to hear an answer.

1.) If we were Special Forces what percentage of your co-workers would you trust to cover your back in a critical situation?

2.) Same question, and this time, what if the co-workers knew you would distinguish yourself with the upper managers yourself if you succeeded?

3.) Do you recognize limitations on your confidence in your departmental 'friends'? Example: If you needed a witness to a certain event which might go against the grain of a superior, how many stand up co-workers do you know?

In the military, it's called treason or cowardice. In nursing, it's called depart-mental politics.

Thx

OldOR_Nurse · Dec 19, 2004

That was a wonderful comparison to the military. I wonder who you would want covering your backside? This goes for not just going up against the manager, but in support for your manager when it seems like she is being made a scapegoat for all the problems in the department. Wonder if some of the complainers would be less likely to complain if they knew they were jeopardizing their immediate supervisor's job by continually gritiching about things beyound the supervisor's control?? Would you go to bat for a fellow employee who was getting a bad rap?

Crumbwannabe · Dec 20, 2004

That was a wonderful comparison to the military. I wonder who you would want covering your backside? This goes for not just going up against the manager, but in support for your manager when it seems like she is being made a scapegoat for all the problems in the department. Wonder if some of the complainers would be less likely to complain if they knew they were jeopardizing their immediate supervisor's job by continually gritiching about things beyound the supervisor's control?? Would you go to bat for a fellow employee who was getting a bad rap?

Would I go to bat?

Heck yes I would. But they better be getting an unjustified bad rap. I've gone to bat at H/R for a person who actually tried to do me harm to get him out of trouble. (extenuating circumstances, I'm not a saint, just a fool He had a pregnant wife and needed the job) [And consequently, no good deed goes unpunished...next chance, I got another knife in the back from him] Sticking up for people has been the source of most of the troubles I've had as a nurse. I'm not super, but I can stand well on my abilities.

But don't follow the examples of one of God's fools. I could have probably gotten somewhere supervisory in this field if I were willing to quietly watch someone get treated unfairly, and learned to keep my mouth shut on issues of ethics. Or used the right person's butt cheeks for earmuffs.

yupyup5 · Dec 23, 2004

It is dangerous to make generalizations. I can do the same for CNS. But then that wouldn't be fair because I don't know you.

Crumbwannabe · Dec 23, 2004

It is dangerous to make generalizations. I can do the same for CNS. But then that wouldn't be fair because I don't know you.

I don't know who you are replying to, but I agree 100%. A generalization is destroyed if one exception can be found. That's why I wrote on the subject of consistency. Your mother probably loved/loves you without reservation or condition and yet has not been consistent in every aspect of that relationship. Mine is probably the most honest loving person I will ever know, but has certainly made mistakes.

I maintain that a positive integrety can be achieved if a person is generally consistent, knows their convictions, and (please not to start a theological argument) stands on 'good' moral ground. (Boy, did I open a can of worms here or not by using the word 'good'.) I have the most problem with those who are patting you on the back, (looking for the soft spot) telling you they are what they're not. That is a lack of integrity, and premeditated lie.

I have had supervisors who have told me they are or can be an ***hole. I can live with that, and they are usually right. They are consistent, and their 'barometer' usually indicates when it's time to start looking elsewhere, pee on the fire and call the dog, before you get some dirty trick pulled on you. A warning, however given to the one who can see or hear it, is also a form of integrity.

ALWAYS include some sort of a glowing reference to this person in your letter of transfer or resignation, they tend to have the ability to strike from a distance, and never forget an offense.

yupyup5 · Dec 23, 2004

I don't know who you are replying to, but I agree 100%. A generalization is destroyed if one exception can be found. That's why I wrote on the subject of consistency. Your mother probably loved/loves you without reservation or condition and yet has not been consistent in every aspect of that relationship. Mine is probably the most honest loving person I will ever know, but has certainly made mistakes.
I maintain that a positive integrety can be achieved if a person is generally consistent, knows their convictions, and (please not to start a theological argument) stands on 'good' moral ground. (Boy, did I open a can of worms here or not by using the word 'good'.) I have the most problem with those who are patting you on the back, (looking for the soft spot) telling you they are what they're not. That is a lack of integrity, and premeditated lie.
I have had supervisors who have told me they are or can be an ***hole. I can live with that, and they are usually right. They are consistent, and their 'barometer' usually indicates when it's time to start looking elsewhere, pee on the fire and call the dog, before you get some dirty trick pulled on you. A warning, however given to the one who can see or hear it, is also a form of integrity.
ALWAYS include some sort of a glowing reference to this person in your letter of transfer or resignation, they tend to have the ability to strike from a distance, and never forget an offense.

Actually I was replying to your post about management. Whatever the job is, management or not, there are people to stink at what they do! Unless you have done the job you cannot and will not ever know what it is like. I use the shared governance model and that helps with decision-making. Keep practice issues at the bedside.

Mother relationship? What are you talking about. Take the 'mama" out of management! Read some of Manthey's work.

nice_nnurse · Dec 23, 2004

Thank you nuresemaa well said i am not DON but ADON in LTC , and would like to add i work my butt off! I also get paid salary with no bonuses, and no overtime i cannot say no when floor nurses call in many days i work 16-18 hour days trying to keep up with my work and work on floor for call ins .if i hear it once i hear it a million times a day "WHAT DO THEY GET PAID FOR TO SIT AT A DESK AND DO NOTHING, THEY CAN DO IT" i had to work 2 extra shifts this week one because of weather (could not drive because she was scared) and next because the floor nurse had to get ready for christmas such as wrapping presents and making candy, etc.i get calls from the time i leave the facility to the time i return.when the CNA's need help the FLOOR NURSES tell them go get adon she has nothing to do. well let me tell you when state walks in and starts firing questions about facility where do the floor nurses send them to yes that's right my office. and you know what i have facility ,my own and floor nurses butts covered because i work 24-7 to make sure it is all done. and i really resent some of the above comments. maybe you should start with your own attitudes and see if things do not improve.

Crumbwannabe · Dec 25, 2004

Actually I was replying to your post about management. Whatever the job is, management or not, there are people to stink at what they do! Unless you have done the job you cannot and will not ever know what it is like. I use the shared governance model and that helps with decision-making. Keep practice issues at the bedside.
Mother relationship? What are you talking about. Take the 'mama" out of management! Read some of Manthey's work.

I think we are talking on two different levels here. I don't see a supervisor as a "mother figure", and My Oedepal complex was resolved years ago. I was using 'mother' as a convenient and familiar example. I could have used as an example a dear friend, Buddah, St. Paul, or any other moral agent who is at once seeking the 'good', and is humanly fallable.

If my mother or anyone's is a repugnant example to you , I am sorry to have rankled your apparent general antipathy toward motherhood. I did not know. Many in the population are weaned at too early an age, it's nothing to be ahamed of. There is help out there. You needn't continue to struggle with Electra unresolved and the oral-aggressive catharsis mechanisms. Nor will the rest of those in your environment be 'inconivenienced' as Szasz might say.

Until then, I would share as much governance as possible, and learn to be a Microsoft free-cell expert during regular office hours. Just walk around occasionally with a few papers and an intense look. No one will know the difference. (and should someone ask, be 'inundated', not 'busy'; the former has more punch.)

Happy Santa transference-relationship to you and yours.

yupyup5 · Dec 25, 2004

I think we are talking on two different levels here. I don't see a supervisor as a "mother figure", and My Oedepal complex was resolved years ago. I was using 'mother' as a convenient and familiar example. I could have used as an example a dear friend, Buddah, St. Paul, or any other moral agent who is at once seeking the 'good', and is humanly fallable.
If my mother or anyone's is a repugnant example to you , I am sorry to have rankled your apparent general antipathy toward motherhood. I did not know. Many in the population are weaned at too early an age, it's nothing to be ahamed of. There is help out there. You needn't continue to struggle with Electra unresolved and the oral-aggressive catharsis mechanisms. Nor will the rest of those in your environment be 'inconivenienced' as Szasz might say.
Until then, I would share as much governance as possible, and learn to be a Microsoft free-cell expert during regular office hours. Just walk around occasionally with a few papers and an intense look. No one will know the difference. (and should someone ask, be 'inundated', not 'busy'; the former has more punch.)
Happy Santa transference-relationship to you and yours.

Are you a manager, wait...a psych nurse? Why are you so hostile and outright rude. Opinions are opinions, that is all they are. You don't have to agree with me, or analyze me. Just move on!

Crumbwannabe · Dec 25, 2004

Are you a manager, wait...a psych nurse? Why are you so hostile and outright rude. Opinions are opinions, that is all they are. You don't have to agree with me, or analyze me. Just move on!

Actually, I think that I was agreeing with you, in principle, in the post that precipitated your 'mama' flame. I did not think that I deserved to be answered in such a manner.

Nope, no psych nurse> I am a proud antipsychiatric thinker. I do critical, PACU, & mission work. And though I have dabbled in mgmt., I vastly prefer working as a trench soldier. In this way, one can not only practice hands on, but also try to make your boss look good, so that you can concentrate on your immediate concerns (which is a pretty good strategy for avoiding or softening politics).

And seriously, I was making a failed attempt at being light hearted with you, toying with the Freud thing.

Let's cyber-curl our right little finger together, promise to be civil or at least friendly, and bury the hatchet. Hope you agree. There's enough bad in the world without me adding to it.

Merry Christmas

RNPATL, DNP, RN · Dec 25, 2004

Please remember the terms of service when posting to this thread. Personal attacks and flaming are not appropriate and certainly not tolerated. I appreciate your attempt to make nice here.

This can be a very passionate thread, that I personally have participated in a great deal. There are many differing opinions. Some that I agree with and some that I do not. But it is important to allow people their opinions and if you agree great, if you dis-agree that is ok too, but leave the personal remarks off the thread.

Thank you for your assistance here and I hope everyone is having a Merry Christmas (or) wonderful holiday :balloons: (which ever you prefer to call it :rolleyes: ).

RNPATL - Patrick

Moderator

wam79 · Dec 25, 2004

I have worked WITH many good or very good Nurse Managers. They would try to be fair and supportive of the staff. They obviously try to help keep their unit/ward ect.. providing quality patient care.

I have had to work with terrible managers. They don't participate in patient care decisions, and are then hypercritical of the staffs decisions. They will not support the staff. they have lied , split staff, and have told other staff private details of other staffs personal lives. They won't return pages ever. So the eve, night and weekends they are not available.

In my experience the bad managers are the minority, but they can leave scars and staff will find it hard to trust managers again. If you have been stuck working under an abusive manager that sour memory will overshadow the good ones.