After posting the piece about Nurses traveling to Germany and reading the feedback. I would like to open up a debate on this BB about "Universal Health Care" or "Single Payor Systems"
In doing this I hope to learn more about each side of the issue. I do not want to turn this into a heated horrific debate that ends in belittling one another as some other charged topics have ended, but a genuine debate about the Pros and Cons of proposed "Universal Health Care or Single Payor systems" I believe we can all agree to debate and we can all learn things we might not otherwise have the time to research.
I am going to begin by placing an article that discusses the cons of Universal Health Care with some statistics, and if anyone is willing please come in and try to debate some of the key points this brings up. With stats not hyped up words or hot air. I am truly interested in seeing the different sides of this issue. This effects us all, and in order to make an informed decision we need to see "all" sides of the issue. Thanks in advance for participating.
Michele
I am going to have to post the article in several pieces because the bulletin board only will allow 3000 characters.So see the next posts.
It was mentioned that Medicare insures our elderly. Why not everyone?
Because first off, Medicare is not free. Most seniors DO pay for a part of it, and ALL of us subsidize it. If you propose a Medicare type system for all, it will only be a matter of time before complaints arise that having to pay a co-pay means that the poor cannot access the system.
Second, Medicare is bloated, wasteful, and fraud is endemic - or WHY do you think everytime you turn on the TV, someone is offering to get you a "mobility chair at no cost to you."
Third, it's unsustainable as it is. Adding to it would only compound and quicken its demise.
Fourth, expect a vast decrease in service, increase in copay, and increase in taxes inside a decade to shore it up.
Well, it is SO evident that these nay sayers dont like a dam* thing about our government.What has our government done right in your opinion? Yeah, I know FREE MARKET.Yes lets keep paying all that money to private companies administrative costs, we want the CEOs to keep getting richer, why Im not sure. Insurance companies are NOT doing a good job with our healthcare system, they are doing a Pi** poor job , plus employees and employers are paying for this poor care. I have had PLENTY of rude nurses and doctors when I did have private insurance.If you are so enamored with the Capitalist system, you should be aware that EMPLOYERS and their CEOs would be happy to get rid of the burden of having to supply private healthcare to their employees. Car manufactures have gone to Canada to build their cars, because they cant afford the healthcare costs for their employees here in this country.Oh yes and one last thought, the voters did speak at the last elections, even other conservatives are jumping ship, hmmm...
Where on earth did I give you the impression I wanted to do away with any of those things? What I did say was that the government was poor at doing most of them unless it is motivated by competition to do better. And you are right, corporations are driven by the need to satisfy investors. And to do that, they must satisfy customers. The government does not have to satisfy anyone, and without competition doesn't even try.
Yes the government DOES have to satisfy the citizens of the country, because as was EVIDENT at the last elections , they will get voted OUT and replaced with someone who will do their constituents bidding. Isnt this why we vote in the first place? WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT.
Well, it is SO evident that these nay sayers dont like a dam* thing about our government.What has our government done right in your opinion? Yeah, I know FREE MARKET.Yes lets keep paying all that money to private companies administrative costs, we want the CEOs to keep getting richer, why Im not sure. Insurance companies are NOT doing a good job with our healthcare system, they are doing a Pi** poor job , plus employees and employers are paying for this poor care. I have had PLENTY of rude nurses and doctors when I did have private insurance.If you are so enamored with the Capitalist system, you should be aware that EMPLOYERS and their CEOs would be happy to get rid of the burden of having to supply private healthcare to their employees. Car manufactures have gone to Canada to build their cars, because they cant afford the healthcare costs for their employees here in this country.Oh yes and one last thought, the voters did speak at the last elections, even other conservatives are jumping ship, hmmm...
Our gov't does lots of things well. I'm proud of our gov't. But I'm most proud of it when it governs least.
Our founding fathers envisioned limited government as the only way to ensure personal liberty.
THAT is at issue here. At issue is not just providing healthcare to the poor, but denying MY liberty to seek top notch care without rationing.
Government control over your life and health is absolutely what our forefathers sought to prevent.
There is a fine line between good government and oppressive government. That line has everything to do with how much interference government places in your life. Prohibiting me from seeking the best coverage available is JUST such an interference.
Build a road or two, provide a military, print some money, move some mail, regulate (not operate) a few key issues and then, don't tread on me.
Our gov't does lots of things well. I'm proud of our gov't. But I'm most proud of it when it governs least.
Our founding fathers envisioned limited government as the only way to ensure personal liberty.
THAT is at issue here. At issue is not just providing healthcare to the poor, but denying MY liberty to seek top notch care without rationing.
Government control over your life and health is absolutely what our forefathers sought to prevent.
There is a fine line between good government and oppressive government. That line has everything to do with how much interference government places in your life. Prohibiting me from seeking the best coverage available is JUST such an interference.
Build a road or two, provide a military, print some money, move some mail, regulate (not operate) a few key issues and then, don't tread on me.
~faith,
Timothy.
Timothy dont you realize that your healthcare which you are paying a pretty penny for( or your employer is paying for) IS being rationed? Insurance companies deny all sorts of care for their patrons, I had vital surgery denied when I was employed and had private health insurance.
Speaking as someone who works in a country with a two tier system - both public AND private health care - what you do to make the public system streamlined and workable is keep the pressure on your elected representatives. If things go wrong scream to the politicians, if there is too much abuse of the system - scream to the politicians - if the patient care ratio is too high - scream to the politicians - gives the pollies a real headache and makes health care one of the "avoid at any cost" political portfolios but then, aren't we paying them to work things out?
Timothy dont you realize that your healthcare which you are paying a pretty penny for( or your employer is paying for) IS being rationed? Insurance companies deny all sorts of care for their patrons, I had vital surgery denied when I was employed and had private health insurance.
Don't you realize that universal healthcare will be even more rationed? Whether rationed by dollars or rationed by long waits, the result is rationing.
If your insurance company refused vital surgery then you had the wrong insurance. You can always shop around for another policy. Of course, when the gov't makes you wait 9 months to deny that same surgery, where ya gonna go?
Don't think it'll happen? The U.S. does twice as many open heart surgeries per capita as Canada and four times as many as Britain. THAT is even after new and improve stents reduced the number of open hearts in the U.S. from 500k/yr to 350k/yr.
This is what frustrates me about some conservative ideas. They somehow seem to have a dissconnect when it comes to compassion. There are people out there that CANNOT just up and shop for different insurance. They may have a physical limitation that does not allow them to go and get another job that pays more or supplies better insurance and they certainly cannot afford to pay for private insurance without the employers contribution. I continue to have FAITH that this government of ours has enough intelligent people with a consience that can unravel the heathcare conundrum and revamp the WHOLE system for the better. I really dont believe that our government is trying to control every aspect of our lives, when we dont get to vote for the people we want to govern us anymore, I might then agree with you.
This is what frustrates me about some conservative ideas. They somehow seem to have a dissconnect when it comes to compassion. There are people out there that CANNOT just up and shop for different insurance. They may have a physical limitation that does not allow them to go and get another job that pays more or supplies better insurance and they certainly cannot afford to pay for private insurance without the employers contribution. I continue to have FAITH that this government of ours has enough intelligent people with a consience that can unravel the heathcare conundrum and revamp the WHOLE system for the better. I really dont believe that our government is trying to control every aspect of our lives, when we dont get to vote for the people we want to govern us anymore, I might then agree with you.
Socialism just doesn't work. It's not compassionate.
That's the bottom line.
'Fixing' a problem that affects 15% of the population by providing less service to 85% of the population has nothing to do with being practical, or compassionate. That's ideological.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false front for the urge to rule it." —H. L. Mencken
Timothy what are you going to do if Socialized Medicine is passed in this country? Will you start a revolution? I think you would have been a great leader in the revolutionary war.
Don't you realize that universal healthcare will be even more rationed? Whether rationed by dollars or rationed by long waits, the result is rationing.
If your insurance company refused vital surgery then you had the wrong insurance. You can always shop around for another policy. Of course, when the gov't makes you wait 9 months to deny that same surgery, where ya gonna go?
Don't think it'll happen? The U.S. does twice as many open heart surgeries per capita as Canada and four times as many as Britain. THAT is even after new and improve stents reduced the number of open hearts in the U.S. from 500k/yr to 350k/yr.
Then I would question whether the US is doing heart surgery on appropriate candidates. More tellingly what is the comparable survival rates. We see something similar here in that the criteria for admission to some private intensive care units is far lower (they will take patients with a higher initial apache score) than for public hospitals.
Sounds awful doesn't it? Yes I am admitting that here if you are 104 years old, a severe vasculopath, still smoking, CRF, CCF, COPD and Ca you are unlikely to be admitted to ICU for a bypass operation on your dicky heart.
BUT you just might be a candidate if you have private health insurance and can afford ICU. Of course that patient is less likely to survive and will in all probability die after about 30 days but by then the hospital, the surgeon and numerous others will have made $$$$$$$$$ for charging for the care of the patient.
Then I would question whether the US is doing heart surgery on appropriate candidates. More tellingly what is the comparable survival rates. We see something similar here in that the criteria for admission to some private intensive care units is far lower (they will take patients with a higher initial apache score) than for public hospitals.
Sounds awful doesn't it? Yes I am admitting that here if you are 104 years old, a severe vasculopath, still smoking, CRF, CCF, COPD and Ca you are unlikely to be admitted to ICU for a bypass operation on your dicky heart.
BUT you just might be a candidate if you have private health insurance and can afford ICU. Of course that patient is less likely to survive and will in all probability die after about 30 days but by then the hospital, the surgeon and numerous others will have made $$$$$$$$$ for charging for the care of the patient.
Thanks for that, so once again, bottom line ,MONEY.
I think you would have been a great leader in the revolutionary war.
ZASHAGALKA, RN
3,322 Posts
Because first off, Medicare is not free. Most seniors DO pay for a part of it, and ALL of us subsidize it. If you propose a Medicare type system for all, it will only be a matter of time before complaints arise that having to pay a co-pay means that the poor cannot access the system.
Second, Medicare is bloated, wasteful, and fraud is endemic - or WHY do you think everytime you turn on the TV, someone is offering to get you a "mobility chair at no cost to you."
Third, it's unsustainable as it is. Adding to it would only compound and quicken its demise.
Fourth, expect a vast decrease in service, increase in copay, and increase in taxes inside a decade to shore it up.
~faith,
Timothy.