After posting the piece about Nurses traveling to Germany and reading the feedback. I would like to open up a debate on this BB about "Universal Health Care" or "Single Payor Systems"
In doing this I hope to learn more about each side of the issue. I do not want to turn this into a heated horrific debate that ends in belittling one another as some other charged topics have ended, but a genuine debate about the Pros and Cons of proposed "Universal Health Care or Single Payor systems" I believe we can all agree to debate and we can all learn things we might not otherwise have the time to research.
I am going to begin by placing an article that discusses the cons of Universal Health Care with some statistics, and if anyone is willing please come in and try to debate some of the key points this brings up. With stats not hyped up words or hot air. I am truly interested in seeing the different sides of this issue. This effects us all, and in order to make an informed decision we need to see "all" sides of the issue. Thanks in advance for participating.
Michele
I am going to have to post the article in several pieces because the bulletin board only will allow 3000 characters.So see the next posts.
Reason 492 to get the insurance companies out of healthcare. How can they dictate what you need? Have they ever examined you? NO! If the insurance industry, lawyers, government, and the big drug companies were not so involved in healthcare then it would most likely be more available and affordable for everyone. However, since it'll be a cold day in h*** before that happens, then I'm for everyone having some kind of health insurance. I know that if I could get coverage, I would probably feel different about this issue buuuuuuuuuut since I can't get health coverage, I ALL FOR UNIVERSAL HEALTHCARE.
But the something that is wrong is that you should be shopping around for better insurance - not that I should have to pay your bills.
Your freedoms come with the responsibility to manage them. When you take away those responsibilities, you take away those freedoms.
See, it's not that I object so much to paying for others as I object to taking away MY choice. Any proposed change that benefits 15% of the population at the expense of 85% is not practical, but ideological.
The problem that I have is that I already pay this kind of stuff. It's sad that a druggie welfare mom with 5 kids from 5 different dads and the illegal aliens have better healthcare than I do and I WORK for a living. I get to pay for the deadbeats' healthcare through my taxes and yet I don't get a break. That's what makes me mad! In order for me to get healthcare, I would have to break the law, be committed to an institution, go on welfare, become an illegal alien, go back on disability, get voted on as a congressman, or try to find a job that offers some kind of healthcare. Anyone see a pattern for this? With few exceptions we are NOT REWARDED FOR WORKING IN THIS COUNTRY!!
The problem that I have is that I already pay this kind of stuff. It's sad that a druggie welfare mom with 5 kids from 5 different dads and the illegal aliens have better healthcare than I do and I WORK for a living. I get to pay for the deadbeats' healthcare through my taxes and yet I don't get a break. That's what makes me mad! In order for me to get healthcare, I would have to break the law, be committed to an institution, go on welfare, become an illegal alien, go back on disability, get voted on as a congressman, or try to find a job that offers some kind of healthcare. Anyone see a pattern for this? With few exceptions we are NOT REWARDED FOR WORKING IN THIS COUNTRY!!
Fuzzy
I agree, but concepts such as universal healthcare contribute to your exasperation; it does nothing to abate it.
Instead of seeking targeted solutions to healthcare coverage, you are advocating massively expanding the very pattern you just adroitly criticized.
I chose a job and a career path that more or less ensures my marketability to a variety of corporations in a variety of economic situations. Come layoff or depression, people still need nurses, and need them in great numbers.
I see your point here. However, not everyone can choose the same option you did. We do need people to be clerks, truck drivers, accountants, salespeople, farmworkers, etc. And if more people did choose to be nurses, there would be an oversupply of nurses and there would go your job security and decent wages. Of course, you'd be one step ahead, having seen what was to come and trained for a unique specialty. But again, you're counting on others not being as astute as yourself. Tough luck for them, huh? They had their chance and they blew it. This attitude really bugs me. I hope I'm lucky enough to make the "right" choices in life, but I make mistakes and I'm unlucky at times and I hope that society will have some support for me if I end up without the ability to take care of myself and not just brush me off with the attitude that I'm getting what I deserve.
This is somewhat off topic to universal healthcare specifically. I don't believe in "free for all" medical care but I do believe in some kind of basic safety net and government regulations to ensure services are provided at reasonable costs. Tim, I don't think most people here are suggesting that "Uncle Daddy" take care of all their problems for them. Just like I don't think you're suggesting that anybody who can't afford medical care/insurance just hasn't played their cards right in life, deserves their woes, and shouldn't ever be assisted by our tax money.
I don't think I have a specific point, except to register my discomfort with some of the wording you've chosen to express your otherwise informative perspective. : )
I see your point here. However, not everyone can choose the same option you did. We do need people to be clerks, truck drivers, accountants, salespeople, farmworkers, etc. And if more people did choose to be nurses, there would be an oversupply of nurses and there would go your job security and decent wages. Of course, you'd be one step ahead, having seen what was to come and trained for a unique specialty. But again, you're counting on others not being as astute as yourself. Tough luck for them, huh? They had their chance and they blew it. This attitude really bugs me. I hope I'm lucky enough to make the "right" choices in life, but I make mistakes and I'm unlucky at times and I hope that society will have some support for me if I end up without the ability to take care of myself and not just brush me off with the attitude that I'm getting what I deserve.
This is somewhat off topic to universal healthcare specifically. I don't believe in "free for all" medical care but I do believe in some kind of basic safety net and government regulations to ensure services are provided at reasonable costs. Tim, I don't think most people here are suggesting that "Uncle Daddy" take care of all their problems for them. Just like I don't think you're suggesting that anybody who can't afford medical care/insurance just hasn't played their cards right in life, deserves their woes, and shouldn't ever be assisted by our tax money.
I don't think I have a specific point, except to register my discomfort with some of the wording you've chosen to express your otherwise informative perspective. : )
I think we are coming from different perspectives. I don't look at it as , I got mine, who cares about anybody else. See, I think ANYBODY can make it in this nation. ANYBODY. It takes effort and dedication, that's all. Not intelligence necessarily, and not intuition. It takes work. That's what great about this nation.
What I was resisting is this notion that some company 'owes' you. That was my response to: 'you try being laid off'. My counterpoint was that would only greatly concern me if I set myself up to feel that I was entitled. THAT is the issue: we live in an increasingly entitlement society. How did we get to this concept of - everybody owes me?
I resist that attitude when it comes to Uncle Daddy, and I resist that attitude when it comes to those 'evil' corporations. (and I can't see how those that view powerful corporations as 'evil' fail to make the same connections when they advocate that the gov't be placed in an even more powerful position.)
The only person that owes any of you is that you owe yourself. That rugged individualism is what made this nation, and it's what made it great.
That's not to say that there aren't circumstances where we can't help those in need in this nation out. We are a rich nation and can well afford to help those in need. We have to be careful though, to ensure that we are helping a need and not creating it. There is a difference between giving someone a temporary hand and providing the means for sloth. The first type of aid is moral and the latter, immoral.
But ultimately, to the extent that I'm willing to help my fellow citizen, it's simply not because I 'owe' them.
I understand your discomfort because we are always preached to that 'there but for the grace of God go I'. That's a half-truth. In truth, God does indeed help those that help themselves and most times, if you strive to be successful, you will be. That's true whether you are religious, or not. So, the true help should only be needed by the rare exception to that rule: where chronic debilitation or temporary career setbacks require an appreciated helping hand.
But in turn, I have discomfort with the concept that I 'owe' people that don't have insurance, no matter what the reason is that they don't have it.
Zashagalka has an idea that IF a person does steps ABCD they will reap the rewards of success, they will become supermen, can leap over tall buildings, can get up when they have been kicked to the curb by a chronic illness, the lame will rise and walk again. Without a lengthy phylosophical discussion, I will say bluntly, there are folks out there that have done all the "right things", been good citizens, worked hard, but LIFE has come and given them a swift kick in the a** and they have no superman strength left and DO need help and DESERVE that help, not because they were good people, because they NEED it. In our RICH country if we as a society cannot set aside enough funds to set up a decent healthcare system, if we continue to squander trillions of dollars , we need to get off our high horse and take a VERY good , LONG, HARD look at ourselves.When a person is in the strong , healthy productive years of their life it is HARD to see others that are not so fortunate and ever envision that yes indeed, "there by the grace of God, go I". It is a mistake to think that you will be immune from a catastrophic occurance if you follow all the "right steps". Shi* happens , even to those "Supermen".
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
I don't believe in "free for all" medical care but I do believe in some kind of basic safety net and government regulations to ensure services are provided at reasonable costs. Tim, I don't think most people here are suggesting that "Uncle Daddy" take care of all their problems for them. Just like I don't think you're suggesting that anybody who can't afford medical care/insurance just hasn't played their cards right in life, deserves their woes, and shouldn't ever be assisted by our tax money./QUOTE]
:yeahthat:
I think your missing the vision Timothy and passgasser.
Why can't you look at Universal Healthcare Insurance as something akin to a bulkbuy membership - everyone in the country would be eligible to buy healthcare at a discounted rate by paying a certain fee to the agency administering the health plan - does it need to be the government? Health care informatics and evidence base practice is making healthcare a lot more efficient. A healthcare membership card would hold a person's electronic medical record. It could be accessed at all health care facilities. Evidence based practice could be incorporated into an individualized health care plan according to individual health needs. You would be informed of your routine health maintenance just like you receive reminders for your cars service and oil changes. Wouldn't bulk buying power, preventative health care, evidence based practice and information technology make the scarce resource of health care dollars go a lot further.
And businesses could just stick to doing business and not be stuck with the financial burden of providing healthcare for their employees. I'm sure Ford would appreciate the break. And perhaps the people that buy their vehicles would appreciate paying $1200 dollars less for them.
Maybe we could even do away with the costly worker's compensation system. And my husband would finally be able to afford to hire a helper for his contracting business.
And we could rid of those annoying drug commercials on TV and then we could all get our prescription meds for the Walmart price.
Zashagalka has an idea that IF a person does steps ABCD they will reap the rewards of success, they will become supermen, can leap over tall buildings, can get up when they have been kicked to the curb by a chronic illness, the lame will rise and walk again. Without a lengthy phylosophical discussion, I will say bluntly, there are folks out there that have done all the "right things", been good citizens, worked hard, but LIFE has come and given them a swift kick in the a** and they have no superman strength left and DO need help and DESERVE that help, not because they were good people, because they NEED it. In our RICH country if we as a society cannot set aside enough funds to set up a decent healthcare system, if we continue to squander trillions of dollars , we need to get off our high horse and take a VERY good , LONG, HARD look at ourselves.When a person is in the strong , healthy productive years of their life it is HARD to see others that are not so fortunate and ever envision that yes indeed, "there by the grace of God, go I". It is a mistake to think that you will be immune from a catastrophic occurance if you follow all the "right steps". Shi* happens , even to those "Supermen".
:yeahthat:
I don't think that Zashagalka has ever been down and out. Yes, I do agree with him on many points. However, I once was invincable, going strong, life was wonderful but than I had a couple of life changing events that made me less invincable. I've worked for the government and I'm seen the waste. This is why I prefer the government not be involved in my healthcare. However, I cannot get adequate healthcare and continue working the job that I love. So I'm at a crossroads. Do I keep working but stop taking my medications and seeing the doctor until I become incapsitated and possible self destruct or do I go back on disability and become a taxtaker. Right now I'm working and hoping that I don't self destruct. Heck I still want the congressman's health insurance plan. Someday maybe I'll run for congress.
Wonder if the public would elect a biplolor, epileptic, sensible, hard-working woman for congress? I guess than I could be a legal criminal LOL.
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Maybe they did all the "right things" and deserve good healthcare.:pumpiron:
sanctuary, BSN, MSN, RN
467 Posts
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