After posting the piece about Nurses traveling to Germany and reading the feedback. I would like to open up a debate on this BB about "Universal Health Care" or "Single Payor Systems"
In doing this I hope to learn more about each side of the issue. I do not want to turn this into a heated horrific debate that ends in belittling one another as some other charged topics have ended, but a genuine debate about the Pros and Cons of proposed "Universal Health Care or Single Payor systems" I believe we can all agree to debate and we can all learn things we might not otherwise have the time to research.
I am going to begin by placing an article that discusses the cons of Universal Health Care with some statistics, and if anyone is willing please come in and try to debate some of the key points this brings up. With stats not hyped up words or hot air. I am truly interested in seeing the different sides of this issue. This effects us all, and in order to make an informed decision we need to see "all" sides of the issue. Thanks in advance for participating.
Michele
I am going to have to post the article in several pieces because the bulletin board only will allow 3000 characters.So see the next posts.
Most of us who are able to work as nurses are doing reasonably well now.
Let cancer or accident prevent a younger person from working they can lose everything including health insurance.
It is difficult if not impossible to deal with the red tape while very very sick.
Timothy pointed out that welfare has truly done a disservice to too many. With good intentions AFDC refused help for children in poverty with a father in the home.
Generations of dependence have allowed too many children to grow up hopeless. They can't even dream of earning a living legally.
I think the lower standard of education in many areas, lead and other poisons in the environment, poor baby and child nutrition due to ignorance and so many other conditions contributed too.
Churches, scouts, and community centers helped many achieve against the odds. But not enough.
I agree that everyone who needs it should have healthcare.
I think we are discussing HOW to work for this not who should be denied healthcare.
Never in my posts did I say that I was for socialized medicine (I just want to clarify that). I'm for affordable and available healthcare for everyone. By affordable, I mean that anyone that accesses it should have to pay something for it. Paying for anything makes people more accountable. Charges need to be on a sliding fee basis perhaps, especially for some of the lower income levels. Third party payers like insurance companies need to go away unless they are willing to let anyone sign up. The lawyers and ambulance chasers need to go away. Heavy duty advertising of pharmeceuticals need to yes, go away. In a sense, human medicine needs to be more like veterinary medicine. Animal owners are expected and do pay for their animals' care out of pocket. I have found that animal owners will also pay for some pretty extravigant treatments because it is available and the owners are educated. Many owners are also amazed how cheap the procedure is and how caring the staff is when compared to human medicine. Yes there are some insurance companies involved in animal medicine but that is not the norm. Sadly, I am seeing more third party pay in vet med. I hope that I'm retired out of the field before it becomes like the human healthcare system.
Yes, I know that I could work somewhere else but why should I have to to get adequate healthcare. As far as "conveniently" leaving information out on the forms, I think that is like lying (maybe I'm wrong but I have high ethical standards). It definately isn't being "creative". Most insurance applications that I have filled out ask for a list of your current medications as well as a "have you been treated for XX in the last five years" question section. I don't think that I have filled many out that asked for an insurance company. Lastly, I know that I'm in the system so eventually those lies would catch up with me ( I know my luck).
I was diagnosed 10 years with gall stones before I had to have them out. I tried to keep them happy through diet but it wasn't ment to be. After the last severe attack 6 months before I had them out, I knew it was time. The surgeon and primary physician were surprised that I kept them that long. I told them that I would have had them out sooner but I didn't have the money.
Specializes in Med-Surg/Cardiac/Surgical Stepdown.
I'm for affordable and available healthcare for everyone. By affordable, I mean that anyone that accesses it should have to pay something for it. Paying for anything makes people more accountable. Charges need to be on a sliding fee basis perhaps, especially for some of the lower income levels. Third party payers like insurance companies need to go away unless they are willing to let anyone sign up. The lawyers and ambulance chasers need to go away. Heavy duty advertising of pharmeceuticals need to yes, go away.
Fuzzy
:yeahthat:
The main problem is that a lot of people can meet neither the high payment threshold set by insurance companies for individual coverage, nor the high costs of healthcare ($60 for an aspirin, $400 just to walk through the ER door.) So, instead of getting mired in debt with a hospital and being hounded by bill collectors they just don't seek medical attention until the pain/discomfort is unbearable, then spend the next several YEARS paying the hospitals/doctors what they can every month. Right now I have the good fortune of being relatively healthy, and as Timothy said earlier not having a decent job w/ healthcare coverage is one of the main motivators to get me out of bed in the morning and into nursing class on top of working 40 hours a week. However, it's also the main thing that keeps me up at night, worrying about what would happen if I were to get hit by a bus or bring home some nasty bug from clinicals. If I had access to AFFORDABLE health care I would have no problem purchasing it. Unfortunately the health insurance industry is not going to stand idle while congress passes heavy regulations about affordability and not dumping customers the second they actually get sick. They will lobby vehemently against any significant legislation that even comes near disturbing their lucrative profit margins. And propose idiotic tax credits which will be overcomplicated, insufficient, and actually act as a passive government subsidy for their industry.
Daggummit! makes some valid points. Trust me, I could spill a couple of personal stories about our superior system that might make you "responsibility" advocates rethink a little. I'm making some maybe extreme posts to get a rise to some degree, but maybe also make some points and hope to soften some hearts.
Every single person who has posted in this thread is going to die bankrupt.
I don't know how much money you have put aside for a rainy day, but I don't need to know - it isn't enough.
One stroke, one bout of cancer, one joint replacement surgery, and it's all gone.
You are going to die bankrupt. You will have nothing. You will get sick, and the bills will mount, and you will wind up broke.
I base this belief off our current elderly. You can find them in our nursing homes. Go visit them. Their 401K's are not so good. Their IRA's are not so good. Their ability to take care of themselves is not so good.
But thank God the US Government did something (Medicare/Medicaid). Otherwise, they would have simply died on the street.
-----------------
So, the above is my honest belief, and my honest fear. What do I do about it? Let's stop throwing out trigger words like "socialized medicine" and "communism" and "liberals and conservatives" and just focus on the problem.
What can we do to keep each of us, as individuals, from dying bankrupt?
I don't care if it is mandatory health payments to big insurance companies. I don't care if it is universal health care. I don't care if it is the exact same system used in any other part of the world.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
You will get sick, and the bills will mount, and you will wind up broke.I base this belief off our current elderly...................But thank God the US Government did something (Medicare/Medicaid). Otherwise, they would have simply died on the street....Let's stop throwing out trigger words like "socialized medicine" and "communism" and "liberals and conservatives" and just focus on the problem.Pel
Exactly my point. People just left to die in the street. Surely not the hallmark of a great country. Lets just focus on the problem. There is work to be done.
Exactly my point. People just left to die in the street. Surely not the hallmark of a great country. Lets just focus on the problem. There is work to be done.
Please, you quote a portion of Pel saying that the hyperbole isn't at the heart of the issue, then, to back that up, you throw out the biggest hyperbole yet.
Site me any statistic you care to site about our elderly or anybody for that matter, dying in the streets. That WOULD be the hallmark of a mean society. It also happens to not be true, at all. There are backdrops and safety nets built into the system: medicaid, medicare, EMTALA, SSI, COBRA, bankruptcy laws that protect primary residences, etc.
This kind of hyperbole reminds me of Mitch Snyder, the homeless advocate in the 80's that used to throw out statistics made up off the top of his head and oft repeated in the mainstream media. The problem: if you actually added up his statistics, more than 1.4 billion Americans died homeless every year.
Even if you look at how the oft quoted '46 million' uninsured is derived, it is a farce. Under the model normally quoted, I would be counted (X4) as 'uninsured' because there was a 1 month period between changing jobs last year when I and my 3 boys weren't directly covered, even though I could have retroactively used Cobra coverage for any health problems during that time.
When I did my jury duty a staff member at the rescue mission told me that they find one or more people dead on the sidewalk every day. This is in just one block!
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
Dearest Timothy, you are right. Spank me and call me Jemima for such willy-nilly use of hyperbole. I concede to your superior wordsmanship. Let me edit my post.
Let's just focus on the problem. There is work to be done.
And to the people that agree with me - and apparently 66% of Americans do - I encourage you to get INVOLVED. There are plenty of organizations that WANT to reform the health care system out there that need YOUR voice and YOUR help. Some of them have already been mentioned in this thread. Others can be found with your favorite search engine.
So let's turn off the TV and do something less boring instead. Timothy - its been real! I've not had so much fun arguing with someone since my undergrad days. All the best to you and yours. Now - in case my efforts fail - how do I get to your house ?
Dearest Timothy, you are right. Spank me and call me Jemima for such willy-nilly use of hyperbole. I concede to your superior wordsmanship. Let me edit my post.
Let's just focus on the problem. There is work to be done.
And to the people that agree with me - and apparently 66% of Americans do - I encourage you to get INVOLVED. There are plenty of organizations that WANT to reform the health care system out there that need YOUR voice and YOUR help. Some of them have already been mentioned in this thread. Others can be found with your favorite search engine.
So let's turn off the TV and do something less boring instead. Timothy - its been real! I've not had so much fun arguing with someone since my undergrad days. All the best to you and yours. Now - in case my efforts fail - how do I get to your house ?
It's been great fun. I love a friendly but spirited debate. I just don't understand how those on Capital Hill can't love the power of words over the power of position. Why such debates in public life normally tend to devolve into partisan anger is beyond me.
I could and DO debate on such things all the time. And, most of my debating friends won't even debate me at dinner unless it's over a salad and not a steak. LOL.
It's no fun debating someone that shares my beliefs: preaching to the choir and all.
"Apparently the liberal media has influenced most of you with their half truths and bias reports that you all actually think you will benifit from a universal healthcare system."
I think this kind of comment isn't constructive. Half truths come from many sources. In fact, it's nearly impossible to know the "whole truth" as there are many different ways of interpretting information. And liberals are just as guilty of such dismissivenss as conservatives. And even when people all have the same information, they often come to different conclusions.
"I can sit here and back up my opinion for days with articles, quotes and such but I see that Timothy has attempted to do just that and hit a brick wall. I see no point anymore."
Just because people continue to disagree doesn't mean that one has "hit a brick a wall" and that there's no point in discussion. It sounds like you think you've got it all figured out and everyone else is wrong. No matter what useful information you may have to share along with your opinion, it's turn off, it feels insulting, and makes me not want to listen to your points. Tell me what you think without telling me what I should think, and without telling me that I'm stupid to think otherwise.
These comments aren't specifically directed at the poster of the quoted comments, but to anyone, from any side of the argument, that addresses the opposing view with a condescending, dismissive attitude.
"Just like social security, I will save up my spare pennies in case I need them in the future. I know I wont rely on the government to feed, house, and take care of me. If there is a national healthcare system implemented in this country, Im pretty sure my saved money will be needed some day when Im told I will have to wait 6 months for a surgery that is needed to save my life."
Back to the issues, while I'm curious to explore the pros and cons of universal health care, that doesn't mean I'm "counting on" government assistance to take care of me. I support having some sort of safety net and will gladly pay taxes for that because even though I take personal responsibility for myself, I want to live in a society where if I have the bad luck of getting a serious illness or if my investment choices go bad, I have no money in old age but lots of medical needs, that it's just too bad. What's the solution? Maybe it's not universal health care. So instead of just telling me why it won't work, what alternatives are out there? Greater health insurance regulation? Less health insurance regulation?
Again, you, or anyone else, probably won't convince anyone to change their minds with a couple of posts ("Oh, you're sooo right! Universal health care would be terrible! How could I have ever even considered it?!") ... but it's useful dialogue and hopefully, it can foster some understanding of other's views (even if you still think they're wrong) instead of disdain.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
jjjoy -you are so right. I have learned a lot from people of the opposite political persuasion -they have often enlightened me to pitfalls I didn't know existed. I am going to do some further research on this issue but came across an article today "Moral Clarity' Espoused in Debate Over Health Care Reform; Recently Published Anthology Calls for Renewed Dialogue" (Untitled Document)
. It talks about exactly the same concept -stop the ideological debate, start the dialogue and let's reform healthcare together.
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pickledpepperRN
4,491 Posts
Most of us who are able to work as nurses are doing reasonably well now.
Let cancer or accident prevent a younger person from working they can lose everything including health insurance.
It is difficult if not impossible to deal with the red tape while very very sick.
Timothy pointed out that welfare has truly done a disservice to too many. With good intentions AFDC refused help for children in poverty with a father in the home.
Generations of dependence have allowed too many children to grow up hopeless. They can't even dream of earning a living legally.
I think the lower standard of education in many areas, lead and other poisons in the environment, poor baby and child nutrition due to ignorance and so many other conditions contributed too.
Churches, scouts, and community centers helped many achieve against the odds. But not enough.
I agree that everyone who needs it should have healthcare.
I think we are discussing HOW to work for this not who should be denied healthcare.