After posting the piece about Nurses traveling to Germany and reading the feedback. I would like to open up a debate on this BB about "Universal Health Care" or "Single Payor Systems"
In doing this I hope to learn more about each side of the issue. I do not want to turn this into a heated horrific debate that ends in belittling one another as some other charged topics have ended, but a genuine debate about the Pros and Cons of proposed "Universal Health Care or Single Payor systems" I believe we can all agree to debate and we can all learn things we might not otherwise have the time to research.
I am going to begin by placing an article that discusses the cons of Universal Health Care with some statistics, and if anyone is willing please come in and try to debate some of the key points this brings up. With stats not hyped up words or hot air. I am truly interested in seeing the different sides of this issue. This effects us all, and in order to make an informed decision we need to see "all" sides of the issue. Thanks in advance for participating.
Michele
I am going to have to post the article in several pieces because the bulletin board only will allow 3000 characters.So see the next posts.
Timothy I can agree with quite a few of your arguments about the government creating a "prison" of welfare dependency, humankind's inherent "what's in it for me?" mentality, and intrusion of the government into our lives. I wish to god our gov't was smaller and more effective with managing our nation. Unfortunately, people like me are trapped in an entirely different "prison." My prison is created by the self-interests of more powerful people: my boss, who offers ZERO benefits to his workers, the fuel companies that charge $2 a gallon for gasoline, the healthcare conglomerates and insurance companies whose priorities lay with funding their management's insane salaries and investors' dividends. As long as these people hold such massive amounts of influence over the government, nothing will happen to improve the situations of the millions of people in this country who are being rationed out of traditional healthcare and have no choice but to abuse the ER, or file for bankruptcy due to huge medical bills. As long as they continue to receive huge corporate handouts, elected officials could give a damn about what the voters actualy need and want from their government, which means there will continue to be a huge number of uninsured. I'm getting long-winded here but what I'm tyring to get at is that at some point some force has to come along and kick the powerful peoples' self-interest in the teeth to restore some sense of balance to the equation. If it takes a national healthcare system that will put insurance companies out of business and chip away at the huge corporations' profit-margins, then so be it.
I disagree.
1. You are not a prisoner to your boss. You can leave that job tomorrow, and find a new job with greater benefits, or create your own mark on the world and be your own boss, creating such benefits for yourself as your intellect and will can provide.
2. The fuel companies are not 'gouging' you. Oil is a fungible commodity that bears a worldwide market price. To the extent that those companies are making record profits, it is NOT because you are being singled out, or because the base profit at the pump is increased over and above the market price of the oil. Those companies also deal with the recovery of oil and their profits are based on the market price of that commodity. THAT is the law of supply and demand, tipped in favor of demand by both our own runaway appetites for that limited commodity and the burgeoning appetites of India and China. Those companies could care less if you buy their product. If YOU don't, someone in China will. The prison here is our own making, by our own runaway appetites, reflected in the price.
3. Big Business is big because it caters to your needs, wants, or desires. Any company that finds itself out of step with its ultimate customers finds itself like the Big 3 automakers, trying to sell SUVs and Trucks to people that want efficiency vehicles. As the consumer of the products of big business, you hold the very key to that cell.
4. Millions of people, just like you, have more choices than abusing EDs and filing for bankruptcy. If you take the oft quoted statistic that 46 million Americans are without adequate healthcare, then conversely, 254 million Americans DO have such healthcare. How did THEY manage when you cannot? And again, who holds the keys to that prison?
5. You want to kick the powerful in the teeth? When or how did YOU become powerless? Those are choices you make and not prisons instituted around you, at least not without your willing consent.
This is a great nation. ANYBODY can be successful. There is no caste system. There are no prisons but those you create for yourself, or let others create in your name.
The 'sense of balance' you seek comes from the inside, and cannot be given to you. Ultimately, such a balance absolutely REQUIRES the respect that comes from earning it.
While I might agree that the gov't can do much more to foster that, the way to do so isn't by being our 'Uncle Daddy'. It's by leaving us alone to individually pursue our very own 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'. That wasn't a guarantee of result, but a guarantee of opportunity. Thank God, because if it was a guarantee of results, it would be the results defined by the very people you want to 'kick in the teeth'. I don't want to kick their teeth in, I just want them to leave me alone.
So, you tell me, what's the difference between a prison of power hungry corporate interests, and a prison of power hungry politicians? I'll tell you. I can choose to ignore the businesses I don't like. That is far easier to do than to ignore power hungry politicians that can put their hands in my wallet before I can.
I understand that you and many millions more inherently distrust 'big business'. I can understand, and even relate. I have no great love or trust of some corporate shill. But I'll tell you this: I inherently distrust the so-called 'beneficial' aims of gov't more. I don't want an 'Uncle Daddy'. Ill settle with an 'Uncle Sam' that only comes knocking sparingly and then, calls first. And even then, I want 'Uncle Sam' to come to me with his hat in his hand, sheepishly asking for limited favors, instead of telling me what favors he's going to do for me, whether I like it or not. If that were my real uncle telling me how he'd run my life better than I can: I'd tell him to "hit the road, Sam, and don'tcha come knocking no more."
Specializes in Med-Surg/Cardiac/Surgical Stepdown.
I disagree.
1. You are not a prisoner to your boss. You can leave that job tomorrow, and find a new job with greater benefits, or create your own mark on the world and be your own boss, creating such benefits for yourself as your intellect and will can provide.
True, no one is pointing a gun at me and making me work, but that doesn't mean I have the luxury of storming out and starting anew. When you have to live paycheck to paycheck, any little disruption in your income flow can lead to fiscal disaster. I could start my own business, but without any source of capital to fund my little venture it is nigh impossible.
2. The fuel companies are not 'gouging' you. Oil is a fungible commodity that bears a worldwide market price. To the extent that those companies are making record profits, it is NOT because you are being singled out, or because the base profit at the pump is increased over and above the market price of the oil. Those companies also deal with the recovery of oil and their profits are based on the market price of that commodity. THAT is the law of supply and demand, tipped in favor of demand by both our own runaway appetites for that limited commodity and the burgeoning appetites of India and China. Those companies could care less if you buy their product. If YOU don't, someone in China will. The prison here is our own making, by our own runaway appetites, reflected in the price.
One of the main reasons for fuel price increases is due to OPEC restricting supplies, and Exxon and their cohorts are more than happy to play right into that supply side situation by increasing fuel prices at record pace.
3. Big Business is big because it caters to your needs, wants, or desires. Any company that finds itself out of step with its ultimate customers finds itself like the Big 3 automakers, trying to sell SUVs and Trucks to people that want efficiency vehicles. As the consumer of the products of big business, you hold the very key to that cell.
Through merger after merger, big business has gotten to the point where it doesn't cater to me, I cater to it. I have to bank how they say bank, shop where they say shop, pay what they say I owe, and the fine art of negotiating for a more competitve price has practically vanished since the few companies that remain after mergers aim to keep prices within a certain margin.
4. Millions of people, just like you, have more choices than abusing EDs and filing for bankruptcy. If you take the oft quoted statistic that 46 million Americans are without adequate healthcare, then conversely, 254 million Americans DO have such healthcare. How did THEY manage when you cannot? And again, who holds the keys to that prison?
Yes, those miriad of choices include selling your house to pay for a surgery, taking the rest of your life to pay the bills, or just crawling off somewhere to die. Tell me this, if someone makes just over the federal poverty level, and doesn't qualify for medicaid, and can't afford the $200 ,or worse, a month for health insurance how can they get adequate healthcare when it costs almost $100 just to be seen by the doc, let alone have any tests done? Not every area in the country is adequately served by a public health system. Many of those 46 million are not welfare bums who sit at home and watch Jerry Springer all day, they are hard working, honest people, busting their butts to get by.
5. You want to kick the powerful in the teeth? When or how did YOU become powerless? Those are choices you make and not prisons instituted around you, at least not without your willing consent.
I lost any negotiating power I have as a voter the second my political leaders jumped into bed with the corporate tyrants who actually control the country.
This is a great nation. ANYBODY can be successful. There is no caste system. There are no prisons but those you create for yourself, or let others create in your name.
In theory, this is true, in practice it isn't. Even though I may have the most brilliant ideas for success, I can't materialize them in a system designed to punish poverty. No bank would loan me the capital for a start-up after looking at my meager income, no matter how sound my theory is. Unfortunately this society does have a caste system, and methods by which to reinforce that system (i.e. the welfare state).
The 'sense of balance' you seek comes from the inside, and cannot be given to you. Ultimately, such a balance absolutely REQUIRES the respect that comes from earning it.
I have my own sense of balance, it helps me see just how unbalanced the outside world is and not blindly defend the status quo.
While I might agree that the gov't can do much more to foster that, the way to do so isn't by being our 'Uncle Daddy'. It's by leaving us alone to individually pursue our very own 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'. That wasn't a guarantee of result, but a guarantee of opportunity. Thank God, because if it was a guarantee of results, it would be the results defined by the very people you want to 'kick in the teeth'. I don't want to kick their teeth in, I just want them to leave me alone.
So, you tell me, what's the difference between a prison of power hungry corporate interests, and a prison of power hungry politicians? I'll tell you. I can choose to ignore the businesses I don't like. That is far easier to do than to ignore power hungry politicians that can put their hands in my wallet before I can.
~faith,
Timothy.
You have your ideals and principles; I have mine. Not too long ago I would have solidly agreed with just about everything you've said. However, when you have to make choices that no one should have to make (should I buy food this week or pay the light bill so that I don't freeze to death?) it tends to change your way of thinking.
Unfortunately this society does have a caste system, and methods by which to reinforce that system (i.e. the welfare state).
I'm not being antagonistic. I know things aren't cut and dried. I feel sorry for your situation. I think the gov't can and SHOULD help out those on the margins, and THAT is how you appear to describe yourself: not successful, but also not completely out - on the margins in between.
Those aids though, have to include some idea of incentive to do better. For example, when I was growing up, not every month, but many months, my mom would get food stamps. She drove over a hundred miles to go to the store because she was embarrassed to be seen using them in our small town. That may sound unnecessary, but to her, it was an INCENTIVE to make enough to avoid needing those stamps. So, she went back to school and made a better living for herself and us. Today the concept of being 'embarrassed' to be on foodstamps is not only passe, many will say it's cruel to even consider such incentives.
But such incentives should be built into the system. There are all sorts of ways to do it.
I will say that, even though it would cost me more out of pocket at the checkout, I think any nationwide business that hires more than 100 people aggregate in all their businesses, should be required to provide healthcare to its employees. I might get a cheaper deal at wal-mart, but I do pay for some of that at the back end.
My point is that the caste system you point out is indeed the welfare system: a system that provides disincentives to move beyond it. Even then, it's not a true caste system. You CAN rise out of it. But the chief argument for universal healthcare is to entrench those disincentives at the bottom and on the margins.
Take your case, I'm not saying that it's a good thing that you have no health insurance. But, so long as it is an issue in your life, you wake up everyday thinking about how to get out of this mess. Once Uncle Daddy solves this problem for you, then you will be much more comfortable maintaining your status quo. But, how does that make you successful? Basic Maslovian law says that your primary needs are your most important motivator. For all too many, once the gov't becomes their priniciple source to meet those needs, then all motivation vanishes. Your situation is a bad deal, but the motivation inherent and created by that situation to improve your life isn't.
So, go figure out how to meet your needs. Get up on your days off and find a job that pays as much as you make now or more, plus provides health insurance. They are out there, but only if you are MOTIVATED to seek them out. Don't hope that the gov't meets your needs, find a way to meet them yourself.
See you say that once corporate and politicians ganged up on you, all hope was lost. I might agree somewhat but let me tell you a secret. The masses aren't being imprisoned directly, they are just being bought off. This is just another scheme to consolidate that power away from you. Once healthcare suffers a communist takeover, those same powers have MORE control over you because THEY decide what is in your best interest, and your only hope for changing such a system is to VOTE FOR THEM.
When we all win the lotto, one vote at a time, we all lose.
Heck I would be happy with affordable and available medical care. Right now I have neither. I don't have any health insurance. Why? I cannot afford it. I have pre-existing conditions where even the psuedowonderful state policy that is supposed to be available to all is over $600/month. I know that sounds like a pittance to some people but I only take home about $1800/month. I'm not a nurse but a CVT (I work with animals).
I can tell you how much "elective gall bladder surgery" costs because I'm paying the entire $16,000 out of pocket. I also pay for all my prescription medications ($150/mo) for my pre-existing conditions out of pocket so I can stay well enough to work and be a tax payer instead of a tax taker. I didn't get any help with this bill because:
I make too much money in a single person household (approx. $25,000/yr);
I'm too young to collect on social securty or medicare;
I'm too honest to deadbeat the fine hospital, doctors, nurses, and staff
who took care of the problem by not paying the bill;
I'm an American citizen instead of an illegal alien;
I don't have 10 kids so I'm not eligible for medicaid or welfare; and
I choose to work for a living.
Recently (Nov 9th), one of our state senators was diagnosed with acute myloid leukemia. Mr. Craig Thomas is at the National Naval Medical Center in Maryland. I know that part on my taxes are paying for his treatment because he has a wonderful insurance policy. He only needs to worry about getting better not how he is going to have to pay for the treatment. He also is receiving the best treatment that our tax dollars can buy. I have nothing against Mr. Thomas, in fact I like him. I even like him well enough to have voted for him every time he has run for the senate. I hope that he has a speedy recovery. Last year, Mike Enzi's (Wyoming's other senator) wife was diagnosed with cancer. She is also receiving the best treatment that our tax dollars can buy. I also wish Mike Enzi and his wife the best.
My point is if I were to happen to "catch" cancer, have a heart attack, get hit by a car, or have any other health crisis where I could not work, I would have to die. I certainly would have a hard time finding good treatment. I certainly wouldn't be able to just get better without worrying how I was going to pay for the medical care that I would receive.
Don't worry I can and do live without the cable TV, eating out, cell phone, computer games, high speed internet, home computer, going to the movies, driving and new or nearly new car, owning my own home, paying the premium user charges for allnurses or any other website, or really having any other "neccessities" like these. I try to live within my means and budget. Yes I'm only two months from being homeless like many Americans. One major medical problem away from not being able to work ----- homeless.
Fuzzy
Have you ever thought about changing jobs? If you have been paying for health insurance out of pocket for more than 12 months, it definately benefits you to change jobs and sign up for new insurance.
When insurance companies do a "search" to see if you have been receiving medical treatment THROUGH OTHER INSURANCE COMPANIES, it will show you haven't been receiving medical treatment for anything the entire time you have been paying out of pocket.
That's what I would do. You just fill out the benefits package along with the rest of the new hire paperwork, and Boom! in 30 to 90 days you have affordable insurance.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
I will say that, even though it would cost me more out of pocket at the checkout, I think any nationwide business that hires more than 100 people aggregate in all their businesses, should be required to provide healthcare to its employees. I might get a cheaper deal at wal-mart, but I do pay for some of that at the back end.Timothy.
Not to get on your case (would I do that?) but you continue to display the typical American isolationist attitude that is getting us in to a whole lotta trouble. The American economy is part of the global economy. In order to compete with the global economy we have to level the playing field - we are playing the game with a built in disadvantage -our businesses have to finance employee health care on a much larger scale than the businesses of industrialized nations that have universal health care. Hence, to use your Walmart analogy, people aren't shopping at the American store anymore - its just to expensive, but that Chinese store down the street -wow- you should see their prices. Look at the trade deficit, look at the outsourcing of jobs, the ever rising national debt -take off your libertarian blinkers for just a moment and look at the whole picture -the global picture. Libertarianism is all well and good in theory but the times they are a changing - no man/country is an island. Not any more.
Not to get on your case (would I do that?) but you continue to display the typical American isolationist attitude that is getting us in to a whole lotta trouble. The American economy is part of the global economy. In order to compete with the global economy we have to level the playing field - we are playing the game with a built in disadvantage -our businesses have to finance employee health care on a much larger scale than the businesses of industrialized nations that have universal health care. Hence, to use your Walmart analogy, people aren't shopping at the American store anymore - its just to expensive, but that Chinese store down the street -wow- you should see their prices. Look at the trade deficit, look at the outsourcing of jobs, the ever rising national debt -take off your libertarian blinkers for just a moment and look at the whole picture -the global picture. Libertarianism is all well and good in theory but the times they are a changing - no man/country is an island. Not any more.
You're wrong about this and here's why. First, I don't buy the notion that concessions to a first world society creates a competitive disadvantage. The powers that come with being a first world economy, such as education, infrastructure and innovation - are huge, and not easily overcome.
And America is a special case, pax Americana. Most of the world's major innovations, from telecommunications to transportation, from industrial to information revolutions, have come from the ingenuity of Americans. We have a proven track record of being the best at being the best. Why do you think our universities are filled with foreign students trying to catch of glimmer of our lightning in a bottle?
Even at their present rate of phenomenal growth, it would take China 50 yrs to catch up to America. And that doesn't even take into account their own concessions that must be made to a growing economic class. And it doesn't take into account that it would take a generational sustaining of phenomenal growth, not a likely proposition, for any nation.
But more important, by sapping the spending power of the average American with this ill-advised plan, you sap the very economic strength that makes America the nation that must build fences to keep people out. It's not a zero-sum game. When you create a system that both increases costs and decreases the health of those that sustain our economy, you do more damage to the system by FAR than the associated costs with developing and maintaining a first world nation of citizens.
The strength of our economy that you eluded to has come from a repudiation of communist ideas. We will not maintain that strength by changing couse midstream and adopting failed communist principles. History has spoken on this matter and there is a reason why WE are writing the history books.
The key terms there are 'elective' and 'available'. Under a national healthcare system, that would mean that you would still have your gall bladder.
And your appt to see someone about getting it out: 4 months from now.
Scheduling the surgery itself? 18 months.
It'll be cheaper, to be sure. That is, if you can get it. Because everbody knows that elective surgeries are mere luxuries. Buck up, those precious surgery spots are needed for someone else.
In fact, it's simply EVIL of you to presume that your gall bladder is more important than the open heart surgery Mr. Jones had to wait 9 months to get scheduled for . . .
~faith,
Timothy.
More BS Scare tactics Timothy. My father-in-law in London has heart disease, and he hasn't waited one bit to get treated, and continues to get good followup care, and is on the road to better health. Nice try. Next?
The strength of our economy that you eluded to has come from a repudiation of communist ideas. We will not maintain that strength by changing couse midstream and adopting failed communist principles. History has spoken on this matter and there is a reason why WE are writing the history books.
~faith,
Timothy.
Strength of our economy? Strong for whom? Certainly not the increasing number of minimum wage workers, or the thousands of highly trained white collar technology workers who continue to see their jobs outsourced to the lowest bidder, or what will surely be the loss of jobs such as yours in nursing, to greater numbers of foreign "implants" willing to work for much lower wages than you are. Weak dollar, huge debt, an unemployment rate that we really don't hear about, no real economic base, and continuing shipiment of jobs elsewhere. The Romans didn't want to believe they were going down the toilet either. Most imperialist nations don't, until it's too late.
Timothy, sink or swim baby. Isn't that what it's all about. May you never face hardship, tragedy or illness and be left to your own devices in your own cruelly create world.
Timothy, I want to address your comments as I think some of your good points are being drowned out by the diatribes on the failures of communism and the virtues of small government (just my opinion, I'm not a good debater or anything, so big grain of salt, 'kay?).
I agree that incentives and opportunities are important ingredients. Minimal government I can agree with in principle, but what is minimal? You say you support requiring companies with 100+ employees to provide health insurance. Some libertarians would say that is still too much government regulation. They'd use the same arguments that you are using such as the argument that employees can always choose to work elsewhere. You say you support programs like WIC that provide funding for specified foods so that the funds aren't used to buy junk food (and let's assume for argument these programs are structured to discourage long term dependence). Still, some people would argue that even this too generous, again using similar arguments to yours. Isn't the threat of your children going hungry better incentive than having a WIC program available?
You've made your point in regard to the importance of incentives and minimizing government administered programs. Yet you do agree that some level of government regulation and some kind of tax-sponsored program to keep those truly in need are important as well. You probably won't be able to convince people to change their ideology but you can help point out strengths and weaknesses of different options, regardless of the ideology behind it.
I hope I'm not coming across negatively, Timothy. As I said, I agree with many of your points but I feel lectured and defensive in response to your posts here, which I don't think is your intent (maybe it is? some people love an argument). But seriously, I've read your other posts here and respect your opinion and trust your good will enough to venture this (long) comment.
jjoy. I understand what you are trying to say... where exactly do you draw the line then? How can you limit it to WIC, or? (yes, timothy, I realize your response with be "this is my point" ;-)). What about someone forced out of work to take care of a loved one? What about someone, who thru no fault of their own, has a debalitating illness and can no longer work? What exactly should a society's responsibilty be to ensure citizens are taken care of in situations of crisis, rather than left to fester on the streets? Yes yes, I know all about the evils of big governement, and about abuse potential of such things being provided. So, if you are a church goer, do you tithe 10% of your income and hound your church to provide for the needy? If your mother or child or spouse became ill, are you prepared to take care of them financially w/o a job or health insurance? What sacrifices are you making as an individual to ensure your or your loved ones or those people with misfortunes don't end up homeless living in a tent on the street? It's easy to say that having no social safety net forces us to make sure we take care of ourselves, but to be honest there are things that can happen that we never imagine that might just make that nearly impossible. I know from personal experience (illness), and altho I don't like Big Brother, I surely don't see anyone else, church or otherwise, stepping up to the plate to take care of the desperate...however they got that way.
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ZASHAGALKA, RN
3,322 Posts
I disagree.
1. You are not a prisoner to your boss. You can leave that job tomorrow, and find a new job with greater benefits, or create your own mark on the world and be your own boss, creating such benefits for yourself as your intellect and will can provide.
2. The fuel companies are not 'gouging' you. Oil is a fungible commodity that bears a worldwide market price. To the extent that those companies are making record profits, it is NOT because you are being singled out, or because the base profit at the pump is increased over and above the market price of the oil. Those companies also deal with the recovery of oil and their profits are based on the market price of that commodity. THAT is the law of supply and demand, tipped in favor of demand by both our own runaway appetites for that limited commodity and the burgeoning appetites of India and China. Those companies could care less if you buy their product. If YOU don't, someone in China will. The prison here is our own making, by our own runaway appetites, reflected in the price.
3. Big Business is big because it caters to your needs, wants, or desires. Any company that finds itself out of step with its ultimate customers finds itself like the Big 3 automakers, trying to sell SUVs and Trucks to people that want efficiency vehicles. As the consumer of the products of big business, you hold the very key to that cell.
4. Millions of people, just like you, have more choices than abusing EDs and filing for bankruptcy. If you take the oft quoted statistic that 46 million Americans are without adequate healthcare, then conversely, 254 million Americans DO have such healthcare. How did THEY manage when you cannot? And again, who holds the keys to that prison?
5. You want to kick the powerful in the teeth? When or how did YOU become powerless? Those are choices you make and not prisons instituted around you, at least not without your willing consent.
This is a great nation. ANYBODY can be successful. There is no caste system. There are no prisons but those you create for yourself, or let others create in your name.
The 'sense of balance' you seek comes from the inside, and cannot be given to you. Ultimately, such a balance absolutely REQUIRES the respect that comes from earning it.
While I might agree that the gov't can do much more to foster that, the way to do so isn't by being our 'Uncle Daddy'. It's by leaving us alone to individually pursue our very own 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness'. That wasn't a guarantee of result, but a guarantee of opportunity. Thank God, because if it was a guarantee of results, it would be the results defined by the very people you want to 'kick in the teeth'. I don't want to kick their teeth in, I just want them to leave me alone.
So, you tell me, what's the difference between a prison of power hungry corporate interests, and a prison of power hungry politicians? I'll tell you. I can choose to ignore the businesses I don't like. That is far easier to do than to ignore power hungry politicians that can put their hands in my wallet before I can.
I understand that you and many millions more inherently distrust 'big business'. I can understand, and even relate. I have no great love or trust of some corporate shill. But I'll tell you this: I inherently distrust the so-called 'beneficial' aims of gov't more. I don't want an 'Uncle Daddy'. Ill settle with an 'Uncle Sam' that only comes knocking sparingly and then, calls first. And even then, I want 'Uncle Sam' to come to me with his hat in his hand, sheepishly asking for limited favors, instead of telling me what favors he's going to do for me, whether I like it or not. If that were my real uncle telling me how he'd run my life better than I can: I'd tell him to "hit the road, Sam, and don'tcha come knocking no more."
~faith,
Timothy.