Union

bluesky, BSN, RN · Apr 5, 2005

But, my friend, I have indeed waited until I graduated....30 years!
My statements are based on experience, not , formal eduacation. I never have seen the advantage of an "us vs. them mentality".

Ok so one minute you're saying only BSNs are able to assess the validity of unions with evidenced based studies and the next you are reverting back to experience. What is your position, exactly?

There's an expression in union work, "there's a time to struggle and there's a time to snuggle". Depending on the climate, strategies change. When times are good and management wants to work cooperatively, it's time for teamwork and unity (snuggling). When times are hard and management is screwing RNs over, it's time for struggle and battle. It's all about the weather, hun. Therefore the us vs. them mentality is only used in times of struggle. At this time my hospital is in a snuggle period. Of course the union still grieves but overall we try to formulate mutual goals and work with administration, beleive it or not. It's not quite as simple as you may think. Anyway I am a bit burnt from this conversation. I am sorry that you have had poor experiences with the unions you have dealt with in the past. I also now realize that you are not the O.P. who stated that she/he had to write a paper on the subject (who is probably a nursing student).

UnewmeB4 · Apr 5, 2005

Ok so one minute you're saying only BSNs are able to assess the validity of unions with evidenced based studies and the next you are reverting back to experience. What is your position, exactly?
There's an expression in union work, "there's a time to struggle and there's a time to snuggle". Depending on the climate, strategies change. When times are good and management wants to work cooperatively, it's time for teamwork and unity (snuggling). When times are hard and management is screwing RNs over, it's time for struggle and battle. It's all about the weather, hun. Therefore the us vs. them mentality is only used in times of struggle. At this time my hospital is in a snuggle period. Of course the union still grieves but overall we try to formulate mutual goals and work with administration, beleive it or not. It's not quite as simple as you may think. Anyway I am a bit burnt from this conversation. I am sorry that you have had poor experiences with the unions you have dealt with in the past. I also now realize that you are not the O.P. who stated that she/he had to write a paper on the subject (who is probably a nursing student).

I believe the OP was asking about the pros and cons of unions.

I was expressing what the experience was in my area. If, I am able to get what I want without having to pay union dues, where is the incentive to join?

I was also questioning that we, as nurses, are looking to be considered professionals, and have been beginning to base our nursing practice on evidence based research. This research shows that there are improved outcomes when there are more BSNs on staff. The same researcher has shown that difference staffing RN to Pt ratio makes on pt outcomes. If the unions support the research and use it for staffing issues, are they also supporting their members getting their BSN?

RN4MERCY · Apr 5, 2005

You need to build alliances with other unions, not cut them down. :stone

Maybe I missed something, but I don't think I've cut anyone down personally, and I think we've done a good job building alliances with other unions. At our last informational picket we had the community support and participation of Teamsters, Steelworkers, Longshoremen and our SEIU Local nurses union, along with United Teachers, Firefighters and Police. In September our national organizing school was attended by nurses from several states, including Illinois, Massachusetts, Arizona, Pennsylvania and Hawaii to name a few. We all need to move forward with a single payor, single standard of healthcare for all which includes safe nurse to patient ratios and professional RN practice standards. If those that went before us burned some bridges, let's get to work and rebuild them!

bluesky, BSN, RN · Apr 6, 2005

I believe the OP was asking about the pros and cons of unions.
I was expressing what the experience was in my area. If, I am able to get what I want without having to pay union dues, where is the incentive to join?
I was also questioning that we, as nurses, are looking to be considered professionals, and have been beginning to base our nursing practice on evidence based research. This research shows that there are improved outcomes when there are more BSNs on staff. The same researcher has shown that difference staffing RN to Pt ratio makes on pt outcomes. If the unions support the research and use it for staffing issues, are they also supporting their members getting their BSN?

I have already expressed why a thorough evidence-based study is not possible for the pro- con- union issue. As for unions and their position vis-a-vis education, my union negotiated a whopping $8500 yearly tuition reimbursement, by far the highest in my area. The BSN makes for a safer nurse is a controversial, well dissected and ill-conceived study which has been debated ad nauseam in other forums.

Candidnt · Apr 6, 2005

I work in a health system that gobbled up several hospitals over the past eight years. Basically, the one hospital in the city (nonunion) gobbled up the competetor (union), destroyed the union, and became the premier hospital (in fact, the only hospital) within the city limits, making the other an outpatient/mental health/rehab facility in part, with state offices, etc, taking up the rest of the campus of the other hospital. Of the other hospitals gobbled up, one is across the river and in the next county and is a nursing home, the other one is a small community hospital which technically sits outside the city limits.

I wish we had a union in there, I think nurses would have a more effective voice in the organization than they do now. I myself would like to know more about how the unions work, how they get started, etc...

expatnurse · Apr 7, 2005

I am interested in hearing how unions work. I have heard many different opinions about them and would like to know the pro's and cons. Also how did your union get started? There has been a lot of talk down south about starting a union but everyone is afraid of the backlash from the upper management and also most nurses don't know what a union can do for them and what the pro's and cons are. Would any of you work/not work in a union if you had to choose. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

I wish you all the luck. I now live in the UK. I am from the deep south too. I was raised to fear the idea of unions and the rest. However from my experience over here I am now pro-union big time. Workers over here have better working conditions. 7 weeks vacation from the start of working. I am part of Unison the largest public section union with over 1 million members. The fact where I am from has no unions is one reason I would not want to go home. In my experience I have found that women play a large role with large membership numbers with the union. Unison website is http://www.unison.org.uk I will see what I can do to get you more information. Good luck let me know if I can help in any way. Everyone on the site is right about not going it alone. standing together you can change it. :)

chicago bsn 2005 · Apr 11, 2005

first of all, i wanted to link this to threads for another.

another student's quest for the questions i have

second. anything is researchable. i am in the information gathering stage here.

third. i didn't say anything like "ADN nurses are a bunch of dummies" so i never implied that ADN's couldn't participate in research, nor that a BSN was enough to conduct research. i don't think anybody really says this. i find that people are inappropriately defensive. i might as well jump on the bandwagon: you don't have to explain to me what a research study is and is not. i have a previous degree and have worked in research. i found the explaination rather condescending. additionally, there is a growing body of qualitative research, which would probably be where work in this area would have to start out. and frankly, i was inquiring about unions so this is really off topic.

i have worked in hospitals for 9 years now, in unlicensed positions. i haven't had to make a decision because the hospitals i worked in had not unionized yet and it wasn't discussed. only now do i consider choosing between union and non-union hospitals as my work environment. i'm simply working on my paper for an issues class, basically a class in nursing politics. honestly, unionization hasn't been specifically discussed in my program, regarding telling us that we should or shouldn't. meanwhile, my "nursing educators" hardly come across "anti-union." they don't really tell us what to do or how do conduct ourselves, other than insisting we act professionally. they do encourage us to be politically active and they do keep us up to date on what unions are up to around the country.

 "DO YOU EVER ASK YOURSELF THAT QUESTION?  You don't ..."

and please don't tell me what i do and don't do. i'm actually looking at a number of issues surrounding why nurses unionize for my paper, including the Institute of Medicine's Health Care Quality Initiative and The Quality Nursing Care Act of 2005 (H.R. 1372) that was introduced to the U.S. House of Representatives March 17, by U.S. Reps. Lois Capps (D-CA) and Robert Simmons (R-CT). I think the theme of my paper will resonate the adage THINK GLOBALLY - ACT LOCALLY as a sort of rationale for unionization...but i have much work to do tonight as my paper is due tomorrow morning.

as always, thank you for your time.

respectfully,

bluesky, BSN, RN · Apr 11, 2005

first of all, i wanted to link this to threads for another.
another student's quest for the questions i have
second. anything is researchable. i am in the information gathering stage here.
third. i didn't say anything like "ADN nurses are a bunch of dummies" so i never implied that ADN's couldn't participate in research, nor that a BSN was enough to conduct research. i don't think anybody really says this. i find that people are inappropriately defensive. i might as well jump on the bandwagon: you don't have to explain to me what a research study is and is not. i have a previous degree and have worked in research. i found the explaination rather condescending. additionally, there is a growing body of qualitative research, which would probably be where work in this area would have to start out. and frankly, i was inquiring about unions so this is really off topic.
i have worked in hospitals for 9 years now, in unlicensed positions. i haven't had to make a decision because the hospitals i worked in had not unionized yet and it wasn't discussed. only now do i consider choosing between union and non-union hospitals as my work environment. i'm simply working on my paper for an issues class, basically a class in nursing politics. honestly, unionization hasn't been specifically discussed in my program, regarding telling us that we should or shouldn't. meanwhile, my "nursing educators" hardly come across "anti-union." they don't really tell us what to do or how do conduct ourselves, other than insisting we act professionally. they do encourage us to be politically active and they do keep us up to date on what unions are up to around the country.
 "DO YOU EVER ASK YOURSELF THAT QUESTION?  You don't ..." 
and please don't tell me what i do and don't do. i'm actually looking at a number of issues surrounding why nurses unionize for my paper, including the Institute of Medicine's Health Care Quality Initiative and The Quality Nursing Care Act of 2005 (H.R. 1372) that was introduced to the U.S. House of Representatives March 17, by U.S. Reps. Lois Capps (D-CA) and Robert Simmons (R-CT). I think the theme of my paper will resonate the adage THINK GLOBALLY - ACT LOCALLY as a sort of rationale for unionization...but i have much work to do tonight as my paper is due tomorrow morning.
as always, thank you for your time.
respectfully,

Your educators don't need to state a position on unions. The fact that union activism is not at all covered in nursing education is sufficient.

My comments on the use of evidence-based research as we know it are founded in my own previous experience as well (I was an electrical engineer and currently pre-med) in response to posts made by other members. Qualitative data is usually used as a pilot study to gather support for futher research- and there's the rub again- how are you going to conduct further research without funding or easy to manipulate variables. I am not by any means against such research as of course I believe that the benefits of unions would prevail. In fact, no one can deny that CNA has made great political advances for RNs in California.

Sheri257 · Apr 11, 2005

As far as the question of unions, I don't think people should be forced to join a union if they don't want to ... However, I also don't think it's fair for people to benefit from union actions if they're not contributing union dues.

The bottom line is this: maybe some organization other than a union would be better but, CNA is the only organization that's gotten a ratio law for nurses. And even CNA's biggest critics don't argue with that accomplishment.

Now maybe nurses can get ratios and benefits on their own, like with Steph's example. But if there's an ownership/management change at that facility, those ratios could disappear. There's also no contract which guarantees other benefits.

A ratio law, like what CNA accomplished, provides long term protection. The fact that CNA has successfully defended the ratio law in court several times also speaks to the need for some kind of organization, union or not, to represent nurses as a whole. Otherwise, nurses have to fight the same battles over and over at each facility with no permanent laws or protections in place.

Is a union like CNA controversial and flawed? Sure. So is any other organization. But until somebody can point to an organization that's accomplished the same, and they can't, you pretty much have to assume that this point that a union like CNA is the best option available.

:coollook:

mmeow · Apr 16, 2005

All for unions!

I can go to work and concentrate on my patients.

i don't have to worry about losing my job because I didn't sweet talk my boss.

I can refuse unsafe working conditions or overtime without making excuses.

and without fear of fallout from management

All because I have rights set in place in my collective agreement that was gained from my union.

I have benefits dental, eye, medical, life insurrance that are set in stone because of my union, and right now since our agreement is up... the employer wants to take away most of our benefits and pull back our wages regardless of inflation issues.

My union is currently fighting these issues and the fact is that by having a united front on these issues...nurses in my province will likely prevail. I seek comfort in that. i also seek confort in knowing that because each province in my country is unionized no matter where I go in this great country my rights as a worker will be protected!

peace:smokin:

chicago bsn 2005 · Apr 16, 2005

i said this:

they do encourage us to be politically active and they do keep us up to date on what unions are up to around the country

you replied:

Your educators don't need to state a position on unions. The fact that union activism is not at all covered in nursing education is sufficient.

i'm going to suggest we agree to disagree, because i'm frustrated and i don't think we have a point worth the back and forth over. i was just defending my program. it's a good one. and it does talk about politic (ie unions) through out the cirriculum, including one full course in "issues" about policy making.

bluesky, BSN, RN · Apr 17, 2005

i said this:
they do encourage us to be politically active and they do keep us up to date on what unions are up to around the country
you replied:
i'm going to suggest we agree to disagree, because i'm frustrated and i don't think we have a point worth the back and forth over. i was just defending my program. it's a good one. and it does talk about politic (ie unions) through out the cirriculum, including one full course in "issues" about policy making.

Actually, I don't recall really having had a dialogue with you at all (please take that in the best possible way :) ). Most of my discourse was directed at UnewmeB4 who made multiple comments about BSN, etc.

For the most part I have found that most schools DONOT cover union activism as a legitimate lecture topic. Perhaps as a controversial issue to be debated, but not otherwise. If your school is different then power to them.

My school had two issues classes but it still didn't cover collective bargaining as a multiple lecture, standard (non-clinical) practice in nursing. If your school did cover it as a standard topic, then why are you writing a paper on it and why is it so hard to find good data? Wouldn't there be some professor, who, having researched the topic herself in order to teach it, would be available to give you counsel on where to seek the data? I am not attacking you or your program. The main goal of your program is to produce a safe, caring, competent nurse. I merely wish that most programs would give unions the legitimacy they deserve.