Union

[ER Tigger Girl]

I am interested in hearing how unions work. I have heard many different opinions about them and would like to know the pro's and cons. Also how did your union get started? There has been a lot of talk down south about starting a union but everyone is afraid of the backlash from the upper management and also most nurses don't know what a union can do for them and what the pro's and cons are. Would any of you work/not work in a union if you had to choose. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

Ultimately nursing committees still have to get permission from management to implement changes and have no contractual backup if management wants to discontinue the plan suddenly. Only unions have the power to bargain for real changes.

I don't think that is true everywhere. Nurses working together can implement changes without a union. I've done it.

steph

[bluesky, BSN, RN]

Well...............here's a little light back at ya'

Only 60,000 out of over 300,000 nurses In California are part of this union. There are hospitals right now that have nurses filing for decertification from CNA. The divisive and manipulative tactics of your organizers especially don't fly with most professional nurses. Go to http://www.stopunions.com and read all about it. Yea, there's a pretty loud voice there for sure.

The statement Arnold made regarding kicking your butt was an unfortunate choice of words but brought about by a totally inappropriate and unprofessional display by a small group of CNA nurses (or organizers) who interrupted a large meeting that was celebrating the achievements of WOMEN. HOW STUPID. They certainly did not put nursing in a good light. That is not how I want to be portrayed to the public and there are many nurses across the country who feel the same way. I am smart enough to know he did not intend that comment to be directed toward all nurses........he was directing it at UNION tactics and he was correct.

Keep it professional and you'll be seen in a better light.

I don't want to see nurses in large groups carrying signs like a bunch of robots out on the sidewalk yelling and chanting. I would rather see a large group of nurses sitting around a conference table with the Governor talking about the REAL issues.

I think Governor Schwarzenneger is doing the right thing. I do not think he wants to kick my butt. He is actually listening and trying to help ALL hospitals. There are many hospitals in California who really have problems with staffing and the very stringent "at all times" ruling is just not realistic. I also feel the CHA is not the big bad ogre you make them out to be. We should ALL be working on this together. Everyone's voice is important. Hospitals, Union nurses and non union nurses need to come together and work as one.

And by the way, I have spent the last year listening to many nurses as to why they feel the need for a union. Some of them have very good reasons.

But, I point out to them that the union isn't going to come in and solve the problems they point out........Change comes from within and it is up to us to do that in each individual hospital............ourselves. . . TOGETHER

So shine a little light on those thoughts and thank you for sharing.

While I strongly disagree with the tactics of the CNA, I suggest that gathering at the table of botherhood with hospitals and politicians who have historically not shown a lick of concern for the plight of nurses, who have repeatedly screwed nurses in the orifice when given the opportunity, just a tad naive.

[bluesky, BSN, RN]

I don't think that is true everywhere. Nurses working together can implement changes without a union. I've done it.

steph

Please elaborate.

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

While I strongly disagree with the tactics of the CNA, I suggest that gathering at the table of botherhood with hospitals and politicians who have historically not shown a lick of concern for the plight of nurses, who have repeatedly screwed nurses in the orifice when given the opportunity, just a tad naive.

I think I see your point for a union forum for those who are in a union and just want to share experiences.

Anytime there is a union thread, we have what we are already seeing here - disagreement.

Maybe it isn't a bad idea bluesky :)

steph

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

Please elaborate.

I work in a small rural hospital where the managers and DON are great advocates for the nurses. We've seen changes in ratios even before the state mandated ones, because the nurses themselves refused to put up with unsafe conditions. We now get call pay for being on-call. We have reasonable raises. Our medical insurance is better. We have a policy that for anything done at our hospital that our insurance doesn't cover, the hospital eats that. Anytime there is a problem with a physician, we have a policy to handle it and a liaison between the nurses and physicians who handles all disputes. When there is a question of unsafe med protocols, nurses are right there in the midst of fixing the problem with pharmacy and all others involved. We have a team atmosphere - maybe due to our being a small hospital plus we know one another outside the hospital. I'm not saying everything is smooth sailing - we have our times of not getting along. But since I've been working there, much has changed in regards to safe patient care and more benefits for the employees. There are many strong-willed nurses working at my hospital . . you should have seen them question the union reps who came about 6 years ago (SEICU I believe) . .. .

Instead of sitting around bemoaning the fact that things need to change, alot of nurses where I work took the bull by the horns and helped change them. I was impressed by that - it was a good example for me as I'd never worked in healthcare before becoming a nurse 7 years ago.

I think music has a point - instead of tearing each other down, give each other the room to disagree.

steph

[bluesky, BSN, RN]

I think I see your point for a union forum for those who are in a union and just want to share experiences.

Anytime there is a union thread, we have what we are already seeing here - disagreement.

Maybe it isn't a bad idea bluesky :)

steph

Disagreement is a good thing sometimes. All the nurses who are undecided can come to this thread and get real opinions from real world people who respect each other but happen to disagree. People need to know that there isn't just the hardcore CNA voice in union politics. People need to know how unions work on a daily basis.

My union (Nurses United) is a closed shop. That means that about thirty years ago a majority of nurses voted to make union membership a requirement for all nurses working at my hospital. Originally we were affiliated with DCNA (read AFL-CIO), but we found that the non-nurse who was handling all our cases wasn't doing her job. We then seceeded (pls forgive the spelling there) and founded our own, all nurse all the time shop. All our officers and stewards are nurses elected by the workers. We have special funds for emergencies and successfully represent nurses in griveances. In our first contact negotiation we obtained a salary increase that made us the highest paying institution in the area.

The cases I have worked on have varied. While the stereotypical defense of the nurse with questionable clinical skills occurs occasionally, not nearly as much as anti-union folks alledge. We also obtain complete workman's comp coverage for nurses who hurt their backs on the job and then get physical therapy refused. Or RNs who get fired after a loved one abroad who gets sick and they leave despite not receiving an LOA from a reluctant manager who is understaffed.

One of the most important differences between a union and non-union shop is that in a non-union shop a nurse can be fired without just cause. This means that the hospital does not need to give a valid reason to get rid of an employee unless it violates one of a few federal laws. So an employer can fire a nurse literally because a manager doesn't happen to like a certain employee.

[bluesky, BSN, RN]

I work in a small rural hospital where the managers and DON are great advocates for the nurses. We've seen changes in ratios even before the state mandated ones, because the nurses themselves refused to put up with unsafe conditions. We now get call pay for being on-call. We have reasonable raises. Our medical insurance is better. We have a policy that for anything done at our hospital that our insurance doesn't cover, the hospital eats that. Anytime there is a problem with a physician, we have a policy to handle it and a liaison between the nurses and physicians who handles all disputes. When there is a question of unsafe med protocols, nurses are right there in the midst of fixing the problem with pharmacy and all others involved. We have a team atmosphere - maybe due to our being a small hospital plus we know one another outside the hospital. I'm not saying everything is smooth sailing - we have our times of not getting along. But since I've been working there, much has changed in regards to safe patient care and more benefits for the employees. There are many strong-willed nurses working at my hospital . . you should have seen them question the union reps who came about 6 years ago (SEICU I believe) . .. .

Instead of sitting around bemoaning the fact that things need to change, alot of nurses where I work took the bull by the horns and helped change them. I was impressed by that - it was a good example for me as I'd never worked in healthcare before becoming a nurse 7 years ago.

I think music has a point - instead of tearing each other down, give each other the room to disagree.

steph

Well. First of all I want to say that I am very impressed by the results of your collaboration. Nurses should always attempt to make change in whatever manner works. Ideally, unionism is the process whereby nurses engaged in the effort you described make the changes permanent by negotiating them into a contract every so often.

I can say with complete certainty that management would not budge at my hospital until everyday nurses organized a union. Furthermore, I have worked at a few other major teaching hospitals in my area and haven't seen administration collaborate at all. That doesn't alter the validity of your experience. I am very proud and supportive of your movement!

Most of the time that I get hot in the pants in these discussions is when people make generalizations about unions that I feel don't feel apply to mine.

Lex

P.S. Do you think that you would retain your gains if your hospital got bought out by a hard-core nurses-rights-busting health corporation?

[Spidey's mom, ADN, BSN, RN]

Well. First of all I want to say that I am very impressed by the results of your collaboration. Nurses should always attempt to make change in whatever manner works. Ideally, unionism is the process whereby nurses engaged in the effort you described make the changes permanent by negotiating them into a contract every so often.

I can say with complete certainty that management would not budge at my hospital until everyday nurses organized a union. Furthermore, I have worked at a few other major teaching hospitals in my area and haven't seen administration collaborate at all. That doesn't alter the validity of your experience. I am very proud and supportive of your movement!

Most of the time that I get hot in the pants in these discussions is when people make generalizations about unions that I feel don't feel apply to mine.

Lex

P.S. Do you think that you would retain your gains if your hospital got bought out by a hard-core nurses-rights-busting health corporation?

I think we are safe there . .. .when I say small, I mean small. No big corporation would be interested in us - we wouldn't make them any money.

Plus, we have the hospital over a barrel . . .. there aren't any nurses to pick from except 70 miles away. They have to do what we say or else.

Just kidding . . .partly.

steph

[chicago bsn 2005]

i'm writing a paper on unions for my "issues" class. it's titled "Should Nurses Unionize?" what i seek is anything evidenced based that might support either side of the issue. i can't find anything. does anybody know of any research showing efficacy? increase satisfaction for nurses or patients? does paying union dues and dealing with union politics outway the benefits? everything is opinion. everything is slanted. i can't find anything for my paper. what's going on with our evidence based decision making on this one?

[UnewmeB4]

Ultimately nursing committees still have to get permission from management to implement changes and have no contractual backup if management wants to discontinue the plan suddenly. Only unions have the power to bargain for real changes.

Where I live, before our merger, the one hospital was union, the other was not. The other hospital let the LPNS go, the union was unable to prevent it. The two hospitals merged, the union couldn't prevent it. This has been years ago, and those people are still mourning the lose of "their" hospital. While they were able to keep their union, it hasn't really done much for them, as far as I can see. When they complain about having to work at "this place", they fail to realize(although I don't know how) is that all the management is from "their" hospital. I guess I will have to ask them exactly what their union is doing for them. I don't see any advantage, and they are still paying dues? Maybe, it is just that I, personally, like to speak for myself, and don't want someone else speaking for me.

I still believe, as we are entering the era of Nursing based on research, we should use Nursing research to state our case. Unfortunately, it would also require nurses get their BSN, based on the research By Linda Aikens. Do the Unions support this?

[bluesky, BSN, RN]

I still believe, as we are entering the era of Nursing based on research, we should use Nursing research to state our case. Unfortunately, it would also require nurses get their BSN, based on the research By Linda Aikens. Do the Unions support this?

Listen, I graduated with honors with a BSN from a highly ranked program. Research is one lowsy little class the concepts of which can be learned by ANY nurse rapidly. I got an A in that class without even cracking the textbook. Double blind studies are more well suited to well isolated, well defined independent and easily manipulated variables such as "drug x" or "procedure y". To begin with, you would be limited to an observational study as you would not be able to control the independent variable ("union" vs "non-union"). The study would not be blind or randomly distributed. The sample would be small and non-random. In short, a real, respectable evidence based experiment is not possible. The idea that Associates' level nurses are not able to engage in research because they didn't take one little class is a great big hoax to me and further completely unrelated to the question of the effectiveness of unions. Why don't you wait until you graduate and experience these environments first hand for yourself before you make a judgement? You may notice that while there is an entire class devoted to management in the BSN program, discussion of labor rights and unionization comprises perhaps one class at best. One class in which the "validity" of the union is discussed. You are required to formulate an opinion for yourself because nursing educators are generally anti-union and know that if the class in engaged in a debate over unionization, the idea that they take away is that unions are controversial and dubious at best. But what about standard management strategies and methodology in nursing? Are they effective or well received and do they lead to nursing satisfaction? DO YOU EVER ASK YOURSELF THAT QUESTION? You don't because the system is set up for you to absorb management philosophy as an acceptable part of the curriculum.

My last comment is as follows. There are good unions and bad unions just like there are good managers and bad managers. If you pick a bad union to observe, please note that ultimately it is the job of the members of the union to fire the union they don't like and either disband the union or form their own. That is exactly what happened to us. The same women who 35 yrs ago built DCNA from their bare hands, after nursing for that long at a hardcore innercity level 1 trauma center teaching hospital, left DCNA and built a brand new union from scratch. I am so proud of my union and these brave women, they are my heroes. They save workmen's comp and rehab for nurses who injure their backs on the job, get amazing salary increases, and stand for nurses who are used as scapegoats in situations where doctors or the hospital policy or procedure are flawed.

Another issue is that many union workers are so overworked that they don't have the time to tell their members all that is being done for them. Often management will be more manipulative and take credit for some benefit that made it to the contract only because the union fought for it in negotiations. I personally don't have the time, after working four long hard nights in surgical ICU, and working on any number of employee cases, to also advertise all the benefits the union members are enjoying as a result of our efforts.

[UnewmeB4]

Why don't you wait until you graduate and experience these environments first hand for yourself before you make a judgement?

But, my friend, I have indeed waited until I graduated....30 years!

My statements are based on experience, not , formal eduacation. I never have seen the advantage of an "us vs. them mentality".