The Wage Gap Myth

10GaugeNeedles, BSN · Apr 24, 2019

1 minute ago, Ruby Vee said:
Actually I did ask for a higher pay rate when I took the job. Neither male came from a higher salary job. One was a relatively new grad with less than a year of experience who had been a Benedictine monk before nursing. The other had been in a series of minimum wage jobs.
Statistical sin, huh. Yeah, that must be it. You don't believe in it so it can't be true.

In that case it sounds like it could be a clear cut case of discrimination. there are ways to rectify this. HR would be the first place to go and if you don't get an answer, you can take it higher with a letter from an attorney. And it does happen. I'm not claiming it doesn't ever happen. As I said, I'm in the same situation as you are/were. my colleagues who are female got higher starting pays with less experience than me. I personally don't care because I'm being paid what I'm happy with and its more of a headache than its worth to fight it.

However, the statistical sin I mentioned isn't your anecdote. it is the extrapolation of your anecdote. It happened to you doesn't necessarily represent a wide spread institutionalized practice.

ConstantGardener · Jun 6, 2019

Not to resuscitate a dead thread but OP is awfully naive by posting a link to a Ultra Right Wing troll farm funded by a billionaire oil man. It famously tries to capture you attention with tag line calling you the viewer a SNOWFLAKE in the intro on one of their videos.

You should Google the organization and their public face and see the crazy things they espouse. Basically in a nut shell, thinly veiled White Nationalism. That the white man is getting the shaft due to the uplifting of women, minorities and other groups. Their view through all their videos is that essentially that the progress society made in the 2nd half of the 20th Century were a horrible mistake as it upset the natural balance of White men having the dominant roles in society. That anything that encourages or uplifts women or minorities are an aberration against the natural order.

I've watched this and a few of their other videos and laughed at their hilarious claims that they expect you to accept without question just because it comes from a "economist". Even though said economist are deeply controversial and their views are not considered academically acceptable.

I've also seen a episode where they made claims about race by citing a a book by a disgraced and deceased anthropologist whom by his own admission was prejudiced and racially biased. But you're never meant to research that, instead your supposed to accept their claims because IT FITS WITHIN YOUR WORLD VIEW.

In a nut shell, if your a Caucasian man and your down on your luck or you feel you're not getting your fair share, then you're their prime demographic and everything they say will fit within your world view.

Xance · Jul 18, 2019

I know I skipped the 2nd and 3rd pages of this thread, but it started out a somewhat reasonable discussion about the parts that go into the wage gap and somehow white nationalism got involved. That was an unexpected escalation of topics, I don't even want to go to page 2 and 3 to find out how that happened as it probably involved a lot of emotionally-charged arguing.

Being called a snowflake is funny to me. How did frozen water become an insult? I also find it funny that using that word as an insult instantly marks you as a right wing, and depending on how often you use it; radical right wing. I tend to notice a correlation that the more often you use the term 'snowflake' when talking politics the more likely it is that you are a radical right winger. Not entirely true as I've also noticed libertarians adopting the term sarcastically whilst the radical right wingers use the term as an insult but it's funny to me nonetheless. Anyways, how did a topic about the gender wage gap somehow involve white nationalism? Let's either let this topic die or bring it back to what it was originally about; the pay gap.

ToadHunterRN, BSN · Jul 18, 2019

12 minutes ago, Xance said:
I know I skipped the 2nd and 3rd pages of this thread, but it started out a somewhat reasonable discussion about the parts that go into the wage gap and somehow white nationalism got involved. That was an unexpected escalation of topics, I don't even want to go to page 2 and 3 to find out how that happened as it probably involved a lot of emotionally-charged arguing.
Being called a snowflake is funny to me. How did frozen water become an insult? I also find it funny that using that word as an insult instantly marks you as a right wing, and depending on how often you use it; radical right wing. I tend to notice a correlation that the more often you use the term 'snowflake' when talking politics the more likely it is that you are a radical right winger. Not entirely true as I've also noticed libertarians adopting the term sarcastically whilst the radical right wingers use the term as an insult but it's funny to me nonetheless. Anyways, how did a topic about the gender wage gap somehow involve white nationalism? Let's either let this topic die or bring it back to what it was originally about; the pay gap.

What you missed by not reading the entire thread is that the white nationalism addition to the conversation from ConstantGardener was a critique of OP's original source. There was no escalation of the topic, merely a concern about the biases of the video. Seems like a fair point to add considering that OP was basing a broad statement off of this source.

I do agree that the use of "snowflake" is another useless buzzword utilized by people who feel that the equality of women and people of color is a direct threat to their privilege. It's difficult to empathize with the reality of others' experiences so we create terms to alienate and invalidate their experiences. Arguments about the supposed similarities between hourly pay of men and women, disproportionate number of men in STEM, and propensity of women to take time off for children all ignore the cultural context. "Wage Gap" is a bit of a misnomer because it's not about hourly pay. It's about the way we foster such different interests in boys and girls in order to fit gender roles (with nurses being a female-dominated profession and stem being the opposite surely this doesn't come as a shock to any of us). It's about the assumption that women will stay home with children and how we as a culture do not have widespread paternity leave. It's about how men are viewed as "natural leaders" and women are "bossy."

In a conversation about sexism it's ironic that many women have chimed into this thread to share their personal stories of sexism in the workplace but their stories are so readily dismissed. Those of you who deny the existence of a wage gap by clinging to the hourly numbers, can you at least agree that American culture sets women at a career disadvantage straight from the get-go? Our culture and the way we enforce gender roles must change in order to achieve career equality.

caliotter3 · Jul 18, 2019

FWIW, I, and I suspect some others, do not use the term "snowflake" in a political context. When referring to the realm of nursing, snowflake is more apt to describe someone who may be young, naïve, but mostly unable to cope with the realities of everyday work life. As a matter of fact, I was only introduced to the political version of snowflake a few days ago and that was in a stream of comments on the internet. I make it a point to avoid politics in the news, it is too depressing.

ConstantGardener · Jul 18, 2019

2 hours ago, Xance said:
Anyways, how did a topic about the gender wage gap somehow involve white nationalism? Let's either let this topic die or bring it back to what it was originally about; the pay gap.

The "wage gap" is a complicated issue but OP literally cited a political propaganda organization that's funded by ultra right wing billionaire shale oilmen who purposely created that very "university" to influence people. They do so with Youtube videos and ads for those videos that play before other videos, that call you the viewer a "snowflake" to trigger you and gain attention. Quite a few times on Youtube I literally almost smashed my iphone from those extremely offensive video ads that tries to show how "woke" they are by making *** up that your never supposed to question or research.

Just to give you an idea....the American Enterprise Institute released a paper a few years ago that questions the "myth" of minorities in poverty by basically stating that if you have electricity and have a refrigerator, your not impoverished. So there for, people in the ghetto aren't poor at all and leaves you to make the implications of that critique on your own. It's full of data too but you don't have to read it to understand this isn't scientific research but political propaganda created with a purpose dressed with data. And you would've known that by simply Googling the American Enterprise Institute.

Not to be a dick but OP is probably a white male who looked on youtube for politically related videos and IMMEDIATELY got hit with "woke" ads, and clicked and went down the rabbit hole. If you even watch YouTube educational videos on political theory, you will instantly be spammed with their ads as these guys supposedly spend over $200 million on Youtube and Google ads.

OP probably went down the rabbit hole and at this point thinks his demographic is getting screwed by every other demographic and pines for the old days. And anyone from any other demographic complaining, bemoaning or trying to change anything in society for any reason is just part of the PC brigade, SJW, and all their justifications are entirely fake news or their all just crisis actors.

And again, not trying to attack OP or derail the thread but trying to start a serious discussion with a far right troll farm video is about as serious as discussing the abstinence by linking a Media video. Literally one of their videos has a woman equating women's rights = feminism = men hating.

TriciaJ, RN · Jul 18, 2019

A couple of recent observations: 1. I love reading advice columns in the newspaper. A few days ago there was a letter from a woman who discovered that a male colleague (who was junior to her) was making more money for the same job description. The advice given was to report it to the EEOC. There was no advice to simply ask her manager for a raise and no mention that she had actually done so. I couldn't help wondering if the male colleague was asking for raises while the female counterpart was wringing her hands. Why wouldn't you start with just asking for a raise?

2. A few days ago on this forum a new grad was concerned about not getting paid for her overtime. She was reluctant to bring this up to her manager, for fear of being seen as "rude" and "greedy".

I do think part of the problem (not the whole problem) is that women are still having trouble being assertive in the workplace. We're still wanting someone to ride in and solve our problems for us while we maintain our image of being "nice". I've worked with many nurses who tolerated nonsense from a power-tripping manager and wouldn't even notify their union. This creates problems for the rest of us, because whoever does speak up has to go out on a limb and buck the workplace culture.

We will make few inroads against systemic discrimination if we're not all willing to speak up for ourselves.

Xance · Jul 18, 2019

@TriciaJ That is a good point with your 1st observation. I have also heard about similar things, although not advice to file an EEOC complaint. Usually it goes something like this; person A finds out person B makes more money than they do and person A thinks they have a superior skillset, seniority, etc. So instead of doing as you suggest, asking their manager for a raise and/or what they can do to also get a similar or larger raise, person A does other stuff. Like harass person B or otherwise treat them badly because instead of doing something about it, its easier in person A's mind to do nothing about the problem but complain. Unfortunately when I was younger I was person A and I didn't realize the value of assertiveness and how it differs from aggressiveness.

I also agree with your observation #2, as once again people do not seem to take the proper steps to correct a perceived issue in their eyes. An OT pay issue should be an easy fix, you will either find out that the policy disallows that type of OT so you will modify your schedule accordingly, or you will get the OT worked and it was a simple error. In either of those cases it requires that nurse to speak up to the proper person and present their issue as no one will ride in on your behalf to fix it for you. Unfortunately that person is probably young, as I was a similar way when I was younger and I learned how to use assertiveness in the military as I was once a shy person who wanted to be viewed as 'nice' as you said and not speak up for myself. The military fixed that issue with me right up so I will now bring such things to the attention of the proper person in order to solve it as nothing will happen except resentment over that issue.

ArmyRntoMD, BSN, RN · Dec 27, 2019

If I could get away with paying females less, why would I hire males? It would be cheaper to have all females.

Silver_Rik, ASN, RN · Jan 22, 2020

On 12/27/2019 at 6:50 PM, ArmyRntoMD said:
If I could get away with paying females less, why would I hire males? It would be cheaper to have all females. <<

For one thing, it's much easier to prove discrimination if 15% of your qualified applicants are men but you hire 100% women than it is to prove a wage imbalance case.

Silver_Rik, ASN, RN · Jan 22, 2020

One thing to take into account when comparing pay versus experience (particularly years of tenure at a particular job) is an insidious reality of most skilled, in demand jobs: salary compression

Recruiting new hires is more competitive than retaining existing workers, so starting pay increases faster than raises for current workforce.

PeeWeeQ, ADN, RN, EMT-B · Jan 25, 2020

The statistics don't lie. Statistically, across all professions, in an apples to apples comparison, there is no gender wage gap. Its not there. Is there anecdotal evidence to show that there are situations where it happens? YES--they are anomalies, not the norm. This should be addressed when it does.

I am also in my mid-40s and spent 17 years in 3 different unions. I'm really not sure how it is possible that another union member makes a different wage than another that is outside the union contract. In 17 years amongst in professions mixed with both men and women, I NEVER saw that happen.