The Wage Gap Myth

[car48]

Not trying to start a gender war here, but would like to get someone to defend the idea that there is a wage gap. This video pretty much sums up why there isn't one to me:

It is all about personal choice of the individual. If you make an apples to apples comparison of a man and a woman who make the same life choices, but there is a statistically significant difference in pay I will be all on board for correcting it. But I am a male in my mid 40's who just graduated and started working in nursing. Regardless of the reason I got into nursing so late (other prof., taking care of kids, whatever), I do not deserve, nor am I entitled to making the same $ as a female (or male) nurse who has been in the workforce for 2 decades.

Other life decisions count too. For example:

Male Nursing Statistics | Fastaff Travel Nursing

Highlights from this are:

• While 3.2 million (91 percent) nurses are female, only 330,000 (9 percent) are male.
• Men are best represented among nurse anesthetists. In 2011, 41 percent of nurse anesthetists are male.

So for the highest paid nursing job men represent more than 4x their general number. In addition to that Men make up 24% of the NPs.

Going further, men statistically take off less time from work, and work more overtime. You can chalk that up to child care if you like, but that is a decision made by the mother and father. There is no way to legislate that, nor should there be.

I do not buy the societal pressures argument either. My wife supported me when I went to nursing school... so what. That is what we decided. Nobody is putting a gun to anyone head saying what they can or can not do. Hell, I just had someone ask me last week "so what do they call a male nurse?"

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

1 hour ago, AbbyLane said:

I don't want you to take offense with how I reacted to your post, I'm not disagreeing with your experience I'm disagreeing with your overall opinion, and that your situation statistically is a unique one in today's world. If that rubbed you the wrong way I truly apologize.

It would be more clear if you disagreed with my opinion, then, rather than just disagreeing with a post where I've stated my personal experience.

I'm all for the disagree button, but I think that other members were right when they stated that you shouldn't use it unless you're stating why you disagree, and/or exactly with what you are disagreeing.

While I may be in a unique position as to having the two paystubs side by side and knowing the exact qualifications each of us has for the job we're both doing, I cannot believe mine is the only instance where the lesser qualified male is paid more per hour than the more qualified female.

[AbbyLane]

3 hours ago, Ruby Vee said:

We've all heard of the "glass ceiling." The "glass escalator" is the flip side:

The glass escalator refers to the precipitous promotion of men over women into management positions in female-dominated fields such as nursing, education, social work, and even ballet.

https://broadly.vice.com/en_us/article/gyxvpq/men-get-top-jobs-in-traditionally-female-fields-because-of-course-they-do

https://money.cnn.com/2017/10/13/pf/women-promotions-raises/index.html

https://www.womenonbusiness.com/men-women-the-glass-escalator/

I see what you're trying to get at but look at is this way. Men are and have been the minority in nursing correct? Along with managerial positions in female dominated fields. We could compare male dominated fields with female higher-up that are slightly out of proportion. things are evening out because men and women are getting jobs not normal to their gender. I'd be concerned if males heavily dominated female profession higher-up positions but they don't. and as time goes on it'll only get higher, along with the rate of women in professions that are male dominated. I see this as a good thing and not a bad thing. If this was the other way around we would be so proud because females are killing it in a female dominated field (and some do). Male growth shouldn't be frowned upon in nursing - it's not so disproportionate that there's blatant bias. Things are evening out if you will.

[AbbyLane]

2 hours ago, Ruby Vee said:

It would be more clear if you disagreed with my opinion, then, rather than just disagreeing with a post where I've stated my personal experience.

I'm all for the disagree button, but I think that other members were right when they stated that you shouldn't use it unless you're stating why you disagree, and/or exactly with what you are disagreeing.

While I may be in a unique position as to having the two paystubs side by side and knowing the exact qualifications each of us has for the job we're both doing, I cannot believe mine is the only instance where the lesser qualified male is paid more per hour than the more qualified female.

It's not the only instance, I never said that. It's still unique in our own society though.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

15 hours ago, AbbyLane said:

I see what you're trying to get at but look at is this way. Men are and have been the minority in nursing correct? Along with managerial positions in female dominated fields. We could compare male dominated fields with female higher-up that are slightly out of proportion. things are evening out because men and women are getting jobs not normal to their gender. I'd be concerned if males heavily dominated female profession higher-up positions but they don't. and as time goes on it'll only get higher, along with the rate of women in professions that are male dominated. I see this as a good thing and not a bad thing. If this was the other way around we would be so proud because females are killing it in a female dominated field (and some do). Male growth shouldn't be frowned upon in nursing - it's not so disproportionate that there's blatant bias. Things are evening out if you will.

I think the point of the articles is that it's a definite bias. Blatant or subtle, it is still a bias.

[caliotter3]

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2019 at 1:19 PM, Ruby Vee said:

Two of those hospitals I worked in with my ex- were union hospitals. And the less qualified male STILL made more per hour. I am not sure how they managed to do that, because when I talked to HR, I was shown the salary guidelines. The union showed me the same guidelines. I was making what I should have been making per the guidelines; the less qualified male was making MORE.

It was explained to me by the Director at my union nursing job how the union is circumvented in personnel matters.

[AbbyLane]

32 minutes ago, Ruby Vee said:

I think the point of the articles is that it's a definite bias. Blatant or subtle, it is still a bias.

I think the bias that you speak of is just the result of society tearing down the gender stereotypes of who works in what field. We can agree to disagree though, I see what you're saying but like I said I don't view it as a bias I view it as society taking a step forward:-)

[LilPeanut, MSN, RN, NP]

Part of it is also that society tends to value jobs that men do more than jobs that women do, and if a job has traditionally been done by men, then starts becoming female dominated, the wages go down to "meet" the women, instead of the women getting paid more, as the men were when they were working in the field.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/20/upshot/as-women-take-over-a-male-dominated-field-the-pay-drops.html

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

There is no gender wage gap. I currently know 4 females with 5 years less experience than me who make .5-1 dollar more base rate than me. I know I make more than them cause I work a ton more hours. That’s not a wage gap.

Gender wage gap suggests conspiracy and institutionalized discrimination. This is false. The studies that claim the gap are research malpractice. The cohort would have to be EXACTLY the same. The only way to really claim a gap would be to compare hourly base rates controlling for age, experience, all factors at INITIAL hire and that includes interview performance which obviously is very hard to quantify, basically the ONLY variables can be base rate and gender. If they could establish that all factors were indeed equal and the ONLY thing that was different between sex categories was the different BASE rate, THEN they could claim a gender pay gap. As it is, they are committing research malpractice.

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

Gender wage gap is not a myth. It is a lie.

[10GaugeNeedles, BSN]

On 1/17/2019 at 4:19 PM, Ruby Vee said:

Two of those hospitals I worked in with my ex- were union hospitals. And the less qualified male STILL made more per hour. I am not sure how they managed to do that, because when I talked to HR, I was shown the salary guidelines. The union showed me the same guidelines. I was making what I should have been making per the guidelines; the less qualified male was making MORE.

Did you ask for a raise? No? If you see a discriminatory practice and do nothing about it, it’s probably going to continue. Maybe they see males as minority (which we are in jrsing) and they want more males. Or maybe the males came from a higher salary job and they were able to ask for a higher rate because of that. Who knows all the factors. If you aren’t getting what you are worth, ask for more. They will give it to you if they don’t want to lose you. But they won’t give it to you if you don’t ask for it.

2female nurses I work with who have less experience than me let me know they started with 50cents and 1dollar base rate higher than I did. And I have icu experience from a level 1trauma center. They didn’t. That is a pay gap and that’s my anecdote. I’m actually satisfied with my wages so it’s not worth it to chase down. But don’t think it’s just men who get more than women. It isn’t. don’t extrapolate your anecdote to a whole population. That’s a statistical sin. Your experience does not suggest institutionalized discrimination.

[ToadHunterRN, BSN]

When it comes to the wage gap, society places the brunt of childrearing on women. So for many women hoping to have children, they look ahead at their futures and select education paths and careers that will afford them more flexibility and time off for raising children. This results in a very evident wage gap that exists, but is not as cause-effect as chalking it up to "sexism."

Some people would point to this as reason to dismiss the wage gap, but actually this means that we have an inequality between men and women where women are pressured by society to assume the majority of childrearing. If men were afforded paternity leave and took on an even amount of the responsibilities of raising children, the wage gap would lessen. Our culture and view of gender roles is in need of a major shift to close the gap and achieve income equality.

[Ruby Vee, BSN]

3 hours ago, 10GaugeNeedles said:

Did you ask for a raise? No? If you see a discriminatory practice and do nothing about it, it’s probably going to continue. Maybe they see males as minority (which we are in jrsing) and they want more males. Or maybe the males came from a higher salary job and they were able to ask for a higher rate because of that. Who knows all the factors. If you aren’t getting what you are worth, ask for more. They will give it to you if they don’t want to lose you. But they won’t give it to you if you don’t ask for it.

2female nurses I work with who have less experience than me let me know they started with 50cents and 1dollar base rate higher than I did. And I have icu experience from a level 1trauma center. They didn’t. That is a pay gap and that’s my anecdote. I’m actually satisfied with my wages so it’s not worth it to chase down. But don’t think it’s just men who get more than women. It isn’t. don’t extrapolate your anecdote to a whole population. That’s a statistical sin. Your experience does not suggest institutionalized discrimination.

Actually I did ask for a higher pay rate when I took the job. Neither male came from a higher salary job. One was a relatively new grad with less than a year of experience who had been a Benedictine monk before nursing. The other had been in a series of minimum wage jobs.

Statistical sin, huh. Yeah, that must be it. You don't believe in it so it can't be true.