The End of Men

[Cul2]

The July/August issue of "Atlantic" has an interesting article called "The End of Men," about how

men are losing out in many areas of our society, esp. in the work force and in getting an education. It's

interesting, provocative article I highly recommend.

On page. 64, the author writes: "Nursing schools have tried hard to recruit men in the past

few years, with minimal success."

I'm curious as to what nursing schools have been doing to recruit men, what strategies have

they tried that haven't been very successful. Can those out there who know provide us with specific

nursing schools, specific examples of what they have tried to do to recruit men into nursing, and how

successful or unsuccessful it turned out.

[Cul2]

triquee -- I agree with your comments. The most common reasons for more men not entering the nursing profession doesn't emerge from the profession itself -- it comes from embedded cultural assumptions about masculinity and the kinds of work nurses do. But I'll raise another question. Do you think that encouraging more men to enter nursing is just a neutral effort, or might it result in, not only improving the profession itself, but also improving health care in general. I'm not talking about a 50/50 split here. I think women entering male work forces has enhanced those environments of those professions. Studies have backed that up. A good example would be women in the military. So -- I'm suggesting that, if we could at least up the percentages of men in nursing to, let's say 17-20 percent, as it is in some of the armed forces, it would be good for women, men, the armed forces and our culture. And of course you're corrected -- I don't want anybody in medicine who doesn't want to be there -- men or women. And there needs to be some cultural shifts to help with this. But that doesn't eliminate other kinds of help to achieve this. Does the nursing profession think that upping the number of men (talented, dedicated, caring, men want to be nurses will help the profession itself? Do some see it as a negative that will eliminate female nursing jobs? What do you think?

[dudette10, MSN, RN]

triquee -- I agree with your comments. The most common reasons for more men not entering the nursing profession doesn't emerge from the profession itself -- it comes from embedded cultural assumptions about masculinity and the kinds of work nurses do. But I'll raise another question. Do you think that encouraging more men to enter nursing is just a neutral effort, or might it result in, not only improving the profession itself, but also improving health care in general.

I'm not triquee, but this struck a chord with me. My interpretation is that many men don't enter nursing because they see it as "women's work," a statement that doesn't systematically degrade men...it degrades women.

It's ironic that the nursing profession wants to actively recruit--and even provide financial incentives to--men because the cultural norm is that nursing is not work for males to do.

Also, by stating the possibility that the profession and healthcare would improve with men in nursing is, conversely, saying there's something wrong with it because women are dominant.

Maybe we can improve healthcare and the profession alongside men in nursing, but can we only do it because of men? That is disempowering.

[Trinitas2010RN]

As a guy. I don't think that schools should try to really actively try to "convince" or coddle males into this profession. I think it requires societal change like the "Man up" article said. I think that will happen sooner rather than later because let's face it, certain jobs in the past are not going to be there for men in large numbers in the future. And at the end of the day people need to eat. So. eventual men will go to where the jobs are. Also there are more men in nursing now-a-days and these men usually show professionalism and confidence in their nursing in general public settings. I think over time this will change perceptions of what a nurse is and this may lead to shift of thought of who does this type of job.

Now let me just say that if I was to tell a recruiter how to get more men into the profession. I think that one way to help get more men into this type of field is to portray nursing as a high level medical profession closer to a doctor as opposed to a sensitive caregiver. When I went into school I didn't have nearly a idea/perception of what is required to be a nurse. I learned along the way you have to know you meds and catch dosage mistakes, you have to make sure your planning out/carrying out plans for the clients progression to eventual wellness, teaching the client, have the ability to not just critically think but also be able to think critically FAST, etc., etc. There is a lot to it. As I'm sure you guys are very aware of. From what I saw in my clinical and my 2 1/2 month externship, this in not what misguided alpha males might call "womans work." No! It's a medical profession that deserves much respect from both genders. I would also suggest any recruiters out there. I would show more of the the action parts of nursing. In example, So more emergency room stuff or ICU care when recruiting males. I think that would be a stronger draw in getting guys interested.

In any event. I personally see the male contingent growing in the nearer future once our economic downturn is over. But that just my .

[metal_m0nk, BSN, RN]

triquee -- I agree with your comments. The most common reasons for more men not entering the nursing profession doesn't emerge from the profession itself -- it comes from embedded cultural assumptions about masculinity and the kinds of work nurses do. But I'll raise another question. Do you think that encouraging more men to enter nursing is just a neutral effort, or might it result in, not only improving the profession itself, but also improving health care in general. I'm not talking about a 50/50 split here. I think women entering male work forces has enhanced those environments of those professions. Studies have backed that up. A good example would be women in the military. So -- I'm suggesting that, if we could at least up the percentages of men in nursing to, let's say 17-20 percent, as it is in some of the armed forces, it would be good for women, men, the armed forces and our culture. And of course you're corrected -- I don't want anybody in medicine who doesn't want to be there -- men or women. And there needs to be some cultural shifts to help with this. But that doesn't eliminate other kinds of help to achieve this. Does the nursing profession think that upping the number of men (talented, dedicated, caring, men want to be nurses will help the profession itself? Do some see it as a negative that will eliminate female nursing jobs? What do you think?

I do very much believe that men can and do constructively contribute to nursing. But I also believe that in order to be successful in increasing their numbers, men will have to combat and reconcile those outdated notions of masculinity and get out of their own way. Real change won't come until men face that demon - a world view that unfortunately, men have been largely responsible for perpetuating throughout history.

Intensive recruiting (on the surface) does make sense as a strategy to transform the stigma associated with men in nursing. However, it bypasses the core social identity issue and comes off as a face saving tactic and a temporary fix. For instance, if someone can say that the reason the male nurse population is increasing is because nursing wants men and is actively and aggressively trying to draw them, then that person does not have to live down the stigma of doing (as dudette said) "women's work" because he is simply answering the call of duty. It amounts to further perpetuation of those outdated notions.

What might we do as individuals or as a collective to dissolve the stigma at its core, instead?

[Cul2]

"Also, by stating the possibility that the profession and healthcare would improve with men in nursing is, conversely, saying there's something wrong with it because women are dominant. Maybe we can improve healthcare and the profession alongside men in nursing, but can we only do it because of men? That is disempowering."

dudette10 -- That certainly wasn't my intent. As I've said before, generally speaking, I think that any profession that is overly represented by one gender (or race, ethnic group) -- especially in our multicultural society -- is not a good thing. And yes, it becomes a better profession when there's a balance. Women are actively being recruited to become CEO's and join boards of directors of major corporations because the diversity is considered good for the bottom line. The genders sometimes have different ways of looking at issues, and combining different ways of seeing is a good thing. So yes, I think more men in nursing would help the profession -- not because there is anything wrong with women or their point of view -- but when that one point of view becomes the dominant point of view you get group think. That's not good. If more men get into nursing I believe it will improve the profession -- not because women can't do it without men, but because diverse groups work better within diverse societies. Hope that explains my point of view.

[Cul2]

Below is the URL to an interesting article about what some

nursing programs are actually doing to recruit more men

into the programs. It seems that actions are being taken.

The stats show that although there

seems to be more men going to nursing school, their

retention rate is lower than women. Near the end, the

article asks -- Is Your Nursing Program Male-Friendly? --

and brings up some behaviors men face in nursing school

that may discourage them from the nursing profession.

Interesting article

Recruiting Men into Nursing School - Career | Male Nurse

[metal_m0nk, BSN, RN]

There may come a time when subversive action without directly addressing our society's concept of masculinity will prove unsuccessful at meeting its ends.

Grandfathering men into largely female dominated fields will only serve to prolong and exacerbate the inevitable...Especially since women's rights aren't likely to be reverted any time in the near future and the traditional avenue of perpetuating outdated concepts of masculinity has been mostly eliminated.

What's worse, is that MEN will have to challenge those notions in order for other men to take it seriously. Men have firmly placed themselves into a very difficult position to maneuver out of, imo.

[Trinitas2010RN]

There may come a time when subversive action without directly addressing our society's concept of masculinity will prove unsuccessful at meeting its ends.

Grandfathering men into largely female dominated fields will only serve to prolong and exacerbate the inevitable...Especially since women's rights aren't likely to be reverted any time in the near future and the traditional avenue of perpetuating outdated concepts of masculinity has been mostly eliminated.

What's worse, is that MEN will have to challenge those notions in order for other men to take it seriously. Men have firmly placed themselves into a very difficult position to maneuver out of, imo.

I don't know about the doom I'm feeling in your post. Now I can only speak to the bos-wash corridor but.....so far I have only met with praise from other men for my chosen career path. And trust me I'm not what you call a feminized male either in look or in attitude. In fact I had the opportunity to meet other male nurses that train at the same Jiu-jitsu academy that I train/teach at. They all said they have had not problems as to perceptions of their masculinity even though they are a nurse. Granted these guys are for the most part athletes and because of their training do physical damage to someone if need be. So perhaps other guys are holding their tougues......but I don't think so. Look. Are there still plenty of John Wayne's out there? Sure. But with male RN that I met, that perception will probably change. Will it be in the immediate future? No. Probably not. But...going back to the "Man Up" article (a must read) the author did show how men's perspectives of masculinity have changed though the ages. There is nothing new to these movements of perceptions. Men have and will continue to successfully adapt to a changing physical and social environments.

[metal_m0nk, BSN, RN]

I don't know about the doom I'm feeling in your post. Now I can only speak to the bos-wash corridor but.....so far I have only met with praise from other men for my chosen career path. And trust me I'm not what you call a feminized male either in look or in attitude. In fact I had the opportunity to meet other male nurses that train at the same Jiu-jitsu academy that I train/teach at. They all said they have had not problems as to perceptions of their masculinity even though they are a nurse. Granted these guys are for the most part athletes and because of their training do physical damage to someone if need be. So perhaps other guys are holding their tougues......but I don't think so. Look. Are there still plenty of John Wayne's out there? Sure. But with male RN that I met, that perception will probably change. Will it be in the immediate future? No. Probably not. But...going back to the "Man Up" article (a must read) the author did show how men's perspectives of masculinity have changed though the ages. There is nothing new to these movements of perceptions. Men have and will continue to successfully adapt to a changing physical and social environments.

No doom...just matter of fact discussion from one person's point of view. Though, the perception of doom you hold in reading it is probably worth examining.

[Trinitas2010RN]

There may come a time when subversive action without directly addressing our society's concept of masculinity will prove unsuccessful at meeting its ends.

Grandfathering men into largely female dominated fields will only serve to prolong and exacerbate the inevitable...Especially since women's rights aren't likely to be reverted any time in the near future and the traditional avenue of perpetuating outdated concepts of masculinity has been mostly eliminated.

What's worse, is that MEN will have to challenge those notions in order for other men to take it seriously. Men have firmly placed themselves into a very difficult position to maneuver out of, imo.

No doom...just matter of fact discussion from one person's point of view. Though, the perception of doom you hold in reading it is probably worth examining.

Perhaps I miss read your intentions. But the tone I perceived was one of a "doom" quality or at least a negative view of how men are going to handle the upcoming changes to their societal roles (please see bolded sentence). Where I believe on the other hand, that men will be able to make this transition without serious negative concepts /connotations of themselves other men. And that this transition will not do much if any damage to our society as a whole either in the longterm or the shortterm. In other words I'm taking my view from a much more positive light (at least I believe this is the case). Granted will this transition be done tomorrow or will it be as easy as flick a switch no of course not. Change is never without issue. But I know it will happen and I bet that this change will not be quite as bad/hard as some my think.

[metal_m0nk, BSN, RN]

Perhaps I miss read your intentions. But the tone I perceived was one of a "doom" quality or at least a negative view of how men are going to handle the upcoming changes to their societal roles (please see bolded sentence). Where I believe on the other hand, that men will be able to make this transition without serious negative concepts /connotations of themselves other men. And that this transition will not do much if any damage to our society as a whole either in the longterm or the shortterm. In other words I'm taking my view from a much more positive light (at least I believe this is the case). Granted will this transition be done tomorrow or will it be as easy as flick a switch no of course not. Change is never without issue. But I know it will happen and I bet that this change will not be quite as bad/hard as some my think.

Yes, the intent was only to say that yes, I do agree that perceptions of masculinity are changing. Yet, they are no where near changed on a universal level and it is going to take some effort (perhaps uncomfortable effort) to get them there. Men have a responsibility to play a significant role in the process. But a lot of the avenues used in the past to shape perceptions of masculinity have eroded in the face of natural, universal shifts in economics and culture.

How men go about creating change will no doubt shape future perceptions. I think that is an important consideration. Another important consideration is to recognize the real beast in all of this so that efforts are not inappropriately directed.

We agree on the point that aggressive recruiting is probably not the best solution. The tactic, in my opinion is subversive and doesn't do anything to address the core issue, but might also end up perpetuating the core issue. The scenario I am exploring is a highlight on that tactic - the issues it might present, while leaving the real issue unresolved.

[tbrd450]

It is true that while the barriers to women entering traditionally male fields appeared more direct and overt, the barriers now preventing men from entering traditionally female fields are definitely real, significant and crippling. They are just more systematically entrenched in our culture - in how we think.

One need only explore these Allnurses threads to see countless examples of female posters indicating that they would not want a male nurse for certain procedures.

The barriers to males, however, look and feel different than those that impacted females in the past (from entering traditionally male occupations). Nonethess, they are very real.

In our society, we tolerate (socially, legally and otherwise) a double standard that burdens men (and boys) by narrowing their scope and perspective. Who they can be is much more limited -- in real terms. Sure, they can apply for any job (except maybe a waitress at Hooters), but they do so at great risk -- risk to themselves. We, as a society, tolerate a trailblazing woman much more so and readily than a trailblazing man. We are suspicious, a little, when our child's kindergarden teacher turns out to be a man. We are suspicious, a little, when our daughter's pediatric nurse turns out to be a man. Who is to blame? We all are.

Our culture is one in which a woman wearing men's attire, for example, is considered edgy and stylish. Our culture is one in which a woman kissing another woman on the big screen is considered civilized and sexy. Whereas it is the same culture in which a man kissing a man is still considered perversion.

Our culture is one in which a woman pursuing nontraditional endeavors is considered bold, independent and, well,... normal. Our culture is one in which a the perception of females breaking down barriers is considered preferable, if not downright idealistic. We want our female reporters in the male athlete's locker rooms. But, none of us want male reporters in the female locker rooms.

We want our daughters to see the world as their opportunity. We want our sons to turn out to be traditional men -- for we all know, intuitively, their lives will be easier if they do.

We want women to succeed. To cross lines and explore all of human dynamics. Men and boys, however, you still need to follow a template. If you don't, be prepared for backlash.

We instruct our new teachers to call on more girls in the classroom, and tranquilize the boys when they can't sit still....(then just label it something like ADHD.)

We call our teenage sons' sexual abuse at the hands of their adult female teachers "affairs" and "relationships." We explain the adult female abusers as troubled, and struggling. The adult male teachers, however, whom do the same thing are perverts, deviants and criminals of the highest degree.

Before men truly have avenues to nontraditional endeavors in society, including real opportunities to consider nontraditional professions, our fundamental thinking about men (and women, for that matter) has to change.

What is certain to me, as a male, is that barriers definitely exist -- to minimize them is to trivilize the issue. The barriers are not like the barriers women faced in the past. They look and feel different, and in some real ways they are more severe and entrenched.