The End of Men

[Cul2]

The July/August issue of "Atlantic" has an interesting article called "The End of Men," about how

men are losing out in many areas of our society, esp. in the work force and in getting an education. It's

interesting, provocative article I highly recommend.

On page. 64, the author writes: "Nursing schools have tried hard to recruit men in the past

few years, with minimal success."

I'm curious as to what nursing schools have been doing to recruit men, what strategies have

they tried that haven't been very successful. Can those out there who know provide us with specific

nursing schools, specific examples of what they have tried to do to recruit men into nursing, and how

successful or unsuccessful it turned out.

[Donna2care]

Got nervous .......... Thought it was directed at me......

[Trinitas2010RN]

All I have to say is I challenge any posturing macho a**hole to survive one shift on my floor (especially a shift like last night's when the sky started falling around 5 am.)

We'll then SEE who the REAL man is!

"posturing macho a**hole"

What exactly does this mean? Would you care to explain?

This can't be "All I have to say..."

I think I kind of get it. I think it goes back to the ideas "womans work" and nursing. Now I never though of Nursing as woman's work or some type of easy work. But I has NOOOOOOOOOOOO idea how hard the job actually was until I was on the clinical floor. Now let me state that I still have to land my first nursing job. But as student/extern I think I got a pretty good overview of how involved the care is for multiple patients. And that mostly was on Med/Surg floors. I really didn't get that much exposure to ICU or emergency. Which I would imagine is even more intense.

I remember helping cut a promo for my nursing school that was trying to get designated as an NLN Center of Excellence in Nursing Education. Basically I said that I really liked the school (diploma program) because they through into the fire (clinical floor) immediately and the your going to find out quickly whether you are going to be able to handle this career or not. And even now as write this, I think I can say this fairly confidently, that I still don't have the full picture of everything involved with being a nurse. Hopefully that will change soon.

Much love and respect to all nurses out there male and female alike.

[tbrd450]

Today's typical young male who refuses to seriously consider any job collectively deemed "woman's work" isn't likely rejecting it because it is presumed easy. It is not the complexity of it that makes it "woman's work." Some of the most mundane, simplistic and "easy" jobs done in society are typically deemed - "men's work."

In an oversimplified nutshell, men and boys who reject nursing (or elementary school teaching, or counseling, or day care, etc.) do so because it is deemed "woman's work" in so far as the perception follows that it requires nurturing, caring, talking (the typical man speaks about 1/3 rd the number words in a day as does the typical woman), socially dynamic interaction, empathy, etc.

Most men and boys who reject those careers as potential threats on their manliness, acknowlege they are tough jobs and require a lot of skill and intelligence. They are just under the culturally-imposed misconception that men and boys don't have those skills, and when they do, they are gay or just unmanly.

However, if they begin to see men doing the work -- doing it uniquely male-like -- they will begin to see outside the box and realize that the work was previously deemed "woman's work" only because women did it. When men and women do the work, it becomes just work.

A male nurse may or may not do the very same nursing duty as would a female nurse, However, that is okay. Maybe a male nurse will emphasize, in general of course, a bit more of male perspective. Women have offered the female perspective in previously male dominated employment fields for decades and the world didn't come to an end.

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

Wowwww

Great comments, thoughts and dialogue. Personally I cannot wait to get into the nursing field. At 48 yrs of age and yes a Male and previous "Macho" lol contractor and business owner I am looking forward to a career where I might make a real contribution to our society. As far as m/f, e/o/e and marketing for males in the work place..... I am hoping no matter what road blocks that may be placed in front of me I will confront and conquer them as I then will persevere no matter what. So what! Life is not perfect and neither are we as humans. I can fill 50 pages on how I have been discriminated against and witnessed others being as well. We are all human being. I will not reach to define "discrimination" but overcome real life challenges.... All that I ask of anyone "respect me and I will respect you" and we all will get along.

Smile it really is contagious

No matter whom you are......

Ray

About every May, I get really nostalgic about being out in the sun with a cool breeze, nailing boards together. By July, I wonder how people ever lived before air conditioning.

You'll probably hear a lot about how men in nursing have to be able to access their "feminine" qualities. What I think sometimes get overlooked is how much women in nursing have to access their "masculine" sides. It isn't all caring and fluffing pillows. Sometimes you have to make big decisions in a hurry, stand and fight when your every instinct wants to hide and cry, swallow your own puke and keep going. Some of my colleagues are pretty little girls less than half my age, and I sometimes find myself thinking that their Daddies would faint if they really knew how their babies make a living.

Early in my healthcare career, I had a conversation with a woman who was concerned how her children would manage after she died. You can learn a lot from the theoretical discussions on these boards, but in a lot of real-life conversations, you're just a human being, trying to give something to another human being in need.

Best of luck. You'll be fine.

[Sarah_M]

not bad article

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

I think it is only a slight disagreement.

Thanks. I think so, too. And I agree with most of your points. But my perception of what happened in the 70's is that a lot of young women coming up in the late 60's were open to knew ways of thinking of themselves and created a climate that forced courts and legislatures to accommodate their expectations. When social institutions wouldn't meet the demands of women, they were able to exert pressure on the government to force institutions to adapt. In terms of the under-representation of men in nursing, it isn't so much that nursing isn't meeting our demands as just that there isn't really that much demand. I pretty much have to agree with triquee that it is mostly our problem, although I certainly don't buy any implication that it is entirely our fault.

I happened to notice on my hospital's website, last night, that our facility has been recognized as one of the most favorable workplaces for men in nursing. So I recognize it may be that my perception is a bit rosier than others', but I really haven't felt much of anything but supported and welcomed since I entered the healthcare field, and even moreso as a nurse. I am well aware that there are women in the world who think men have no place in nursing, but they are a tiny minority who doesn't get along with much of anybody. To the extent my gender has been discussed, the reaction of my instructors, my employers, and my peers has been almost entirely, "Good for you--we need more men."

I do believe there are problems in nursing that do need to be addressed, such as unsafe ratios, horizontal violence, and a lack of respect from the public and allied professions. Frankly, I think one of the reasons men are more likely to leave nursing within the first five years is that we are less willing to put up with such conditions. But I also tend to believe that bringing more men into nursing will have some influence to improve some of these problems--which is not meant to say that increasing the number of men will in itself will solve these problems. I am rather tentatively suggesting a hypothetical "male attitude," might, in itself, improve the climate slightly, but I am more confident in speculating that a greater proportion of males would make retaining males more of a priority than it is (a 50% turnover in 5% of the workforce is probably less problematic than a 25% turnover in 10% of the workforce, and certainly less than a 50% turnover in 10% of the workforce) and that a greater need to retain males would likely force nursing to conform more nearly to the standards in other industries. (I am not sure how they compare, now, but a few years ago, an entry-level painter at my facility earned a penny an hour more than an entry-level LPN. I've done a lot of painting. Doing it well takes skill. The skillset is not as varied nor the training as rigorous as that of an LPN. The difference is that a predominently female LPN workforce is willing to work for a penny less than a predominantly male painting workforce.)

It may seem I've made a pretty good argument for nursing administrators to keep men out of nursing. But I think the high proportion of young women in nursing is probably one of nursing managment's major headaches. Young women do crazy, impulsive things like getting married and having kids. If their husband gets a job offer on the West Coast, there are hospitals on the West Coast, too. If the kids get sick, Mom takes the day off. Men are eligible to take FMLA for the birth of a child, but I've never known one to do it. From an employer's viewpoint, it seems entirely plausible that men could bring a stability to the workforce that would at least offset some of the demands we might be more likely to make. Also, on average, we can lift more.

Please note well that I'm not trying to argue that men are better nurses than women. I'm only saying that when we choose to enter nursing, both our peers and our employers have ample reason to welcome us, and my personal experience has been that they do. Some of the same incentives would likely apply to recruiting more of us, but those incentives might lose impact given the statistical likelihood that more of us will try it for a couple of years and then say to heck with that. So I think it may be that a lot of the burden of recruiting male nurses may fall to us, male nurses. Frankly, I'm thinking contacting public schools to see whether they have career days might be one of the most substantial contributions I can make to the future of my profession.

[Donna2care]

Mike,

I do not want to get ahead of myself. I am not always going to state facts but I am going to discuss some of my own personal experiences and thoughts. I had been married to a woman whom I had been with from the time she started Med School (RN) up to employment and eventual a position into PACU in a regional medical center. I also was privy to living in a neighborhood to which was largely populated by Doctors and Administrative staff of a multitude of medical centers in my local. My prior profession was not in the medical field directly but I was a contractor (Sometimes supported by the medical personel). I had the opportunity also to share many personal events, parties and vacations with them (Medical personel) as well.

Why the introduction?

Because I do not want anyone to think I am currently in the Med field (Will be soon with the grace of G_d and hard work). I unfortunately saw/heard many instances of discrimination. Sure nobody stood on a table and shouted it out but it is definately there. Is it Dr. to Nurse . M/rn to F/ rn, Nurse to support staff? I witnessed it all ! I also will tell you I strongly assisted my F partner in school and all her career choices. I was there for the first rotations, the making sure she was healthy and safe at her first job in a psyche center, making sure she was well fed and rested. Yes we shared in the rearing of the babies (3) often which I had to take the lead role in that as well (and proud of it, another story in itself from a fathers stand point).

Being a nurse is TOUGH! It is a difficult job VERY(mentally and physically). Yes there are many skill sets needed (Yeah maybe even more than a painter). If you are Male or Female ALL nurses share many commonalities. I am hoping I will be able to look beyond the discriminations and road blocks that may be in front of me. There are road blocks in many careers and in Life in general. Are we as a society getting better? Yes! I hope so. Is there more that can be done? Yes!

I will say in the NY metro area my X was well compensated for her work (pay, benefits, vac and additional services offered by her employee) Including additional free education .

All that said another reality....... The economy.... the schools cannot keep up with the amount of qualified students whom want to get into the health care fields. Years backlogs, WHY? Not enough PROFESSORS Again another issue. Maybe? Yikes! I might dare say the upper crust of health care (administration) doesn't want competition?(It is a great conspiracy theory)(Why so many foreign nurses and Doctors?) I will say unfortuneatly if my x did not know all the persons she and her family new who knows if she would have gotten into school or even landed her positions she obtained (YES she is smart I do not want to take anything a way from her).

Is our whole health care system failing or in need of a make over? Do we need more Techs? Again I know many RN's that have specialties. What about Technologies WOWWWWW.

Another question I ask myself Job Security? I have accepted that unfortunately or fortuantely my studies will never end and future learned and schoolastic skill sets and experiences will never end!

M/F does not matter. The careers in Health care are challenging and I do not think the end is in sight. I have prepared myself and made the choice this is what I want to do (even after I typed this.. lol). Nobody is putting a gun to my head. This is (for now) still America. I will do my best to work with all others for the betterment of the patient, community and myself. It may or may not be the perfect career for many reasons but here I come and I look forward to working with all.

Lastly, I am very interested In some of the facts? Can someone send me resources on Males in the Nursing Fields.... Why are not only men leaving why woman..... Are they leaving all together from the field, taking a break or moving sideways... I have a feeling trends have changed recently because of economic conditions....

I hope all a safe and uneventfull day,

"Ray"

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

Mike,

I do not want to get ahead of myself. I am not always going to state facts but I am going to discuss some of my own personal experiences and thoughts. I had been married to a woman whom I had been with from the time she started Med School (RN) up to employment and eventual a position into PACU in a regional medical center. I also was privy to living in a neighborhood to which was largely populated by Doctors and Administrative staff of a multitude of medical centers in my local. My prior profession was not in the medical field directly but I was a contractor (Sometimes supported by the medical personel). I had the opportunity also to share many personal events, parties and vacations with them (Medical personel) as well.

Why the introduction?

Because I do not want anyone to think I am currently in the Med field (Will be soon with the grace of G_d and hard work). I unfortunately saw/heard many instances of discrimination. Sure nobody stood on a table and shouted it out but it is definately there. Is it Dr. to Nurse . M/rn to F/ rn, Nurse to support staff? I witnessed it all ! I also will tell you I strongly assisted my F partner in school and all her career choices. I was there for the first rotations, the making sure she was healthy and safe at her first job in a psyche center, making sure she was well fed and rested. Yes we shared in the rearing of the babies (3) often which I had to take the lead role in that as well (and proud of it, another story in itself from a fathers stand point).

Being a nurse is TOUGH! It is a difficult job VERY(mentally and physically). Yes there are many skill sets needed (Yeah maybe even more than a painter). If you are Male or Female ALL nurses share many commonalities. I am hoping I will be able to look beyond the discriminations and road blocks that may be in front of me. There are road blocks in many careers and in Life in general. Are we as a society getting better? Yes! I hope so. Is there more that can be done? Yes!

I will say in the NY metro area my X was well compensated for her work (pay, benefits, vac and additional services offered by her employee) Including additional free education .

All that said another reality....... The economy.... the schools cannot keep up with the amount of qualified students whom want to get into the health care fields. Years backlogs, WHY? Not enough PROFESSORS Again another issue. Maybe? Yikes! I might dare say the upper crust of health care (administration) doesn't want competition?(It is a great conspiracy theory)(Why so many foreign nurses and Doctors?) I will say unfortuneatly if my x did not know all the persons she and her family new who knows if she would have gotten into school or even landed her positions she obtained (YES she is smart I do not want to take anything a way from her).

Is our whole health care system failing or in need of a make over? Do we need more Techs? Again I know many RN's that have specialties. What about Technologies WOWWWWW.

Another question I ask myself Job Security? I have accepted that unfortunately or fortuantely my studies will never end and future learned and schoolastic skill sets and experiences will never end!

M/F does not matter. The careers in Health care are challenging and I do not think the end is in sight. I have prepared myself and made the choice this is what I want to do (even after I typed this.. lol). Nobody is putting a gun to my head. This is (for now) still America. I will do my best to work with all others for the betterment of the patient, community and myself. It may or may not be the perfect career for many reasons but here I come and I look forward to working with all.

Lastly, I am very interested In some of the facts? Can someone send me resources on Males in the Nursing Fields.... Why are not only men leaving why woman..... Are they leaving all together from the field, taking a break or moving sideways... I have a feeling trends have changed recently because of economic conditions....

I hope all a safe and uneventfull day,

"Ray"

Sorry, I see "contractor" and tend to automatically assume home improvements. But, hey, at least I didn't assume hired killer.

It's good you have some idea what you are getting into. It is a tough job, mentally, emotionally, and physically. And while I can't say I've experienced discrimination, myself, I've read so much about it that I have to believe at least some of the reports are valid. I think, though, that as a society we have been somewhat conditioned to look for it and find it where it may not exist--not every guy who has a bad time in nursing has it because he's male, and a lot of women have a bad time, too.

There are problems in nursing that don't have to be, but there are also many that just come with the territory. One of my coworkers lost her first patient, recently. She did everything that could be done, but he was just too sick. It made a bad night for her and I felt bad for her. I was and am ready to do anything I could to support her. But it's one of the facts of life we have to come to terms with, and she will be a stronger nurse for having gotten through it. That kind of stress we can't avoid.

I'm not sure what the most recent statistics are, but not long ago, new male nurses were leaving at about twice the rate of new female nurses (

I have to get ready for work, so other members will be thrilled that I can't pursue this further. I assume you've seen the Men in Nursing forum on these boards. If not, check it out.

[Donna2care]

Thanks Mike............

I have been reaching out to a lot of Nurses, M/F, Young and Old, RN's LPN's ......... Reached out to school counselors etc....... My heart says LPN field is for me BUT Head is now not so sure..... Lpn's in NJ are being weeded out big time....... Long waiting list for RN schools... Economic and Health Care as we know it I think is changing.......... I have a little bit of time before I jump in (although very little). I am going to research this to make sure I make the best choices all around.....However, If I go forward I will swim like the salmon upstream as that is me.....

Thanks Brother......

[tbrd450]

Thanks. I think so, too. And I agree with most of your points. But my perception of what happened in the 70's is that a lot of young women coming up in the late 60's were open to knew ways of thinking of themselves and created a climate that forced courts and legislatures to accommodate their expectations. When social institutions wouldn't meet the demands of women, they were able to exert pressure on the government to force institutions to adapt. In terms of the under-representation of men in nursing, it isn't so much that nursing isn't meeting our demands as just that there isn't really that much demand. I pretty much have to agree with triquee that it is mostly our problem, although I certainly don't buy any implication that it is entirely our fault.

I happened to notice on my hospital's website, last night, that our facility has been recognized as one of the most favorable workplaces for men in nursing. So I recognize it may be that my perception is a bit rosier than others', but I really haven't felt much of anything but supported and welcomed since I entered the healthcare field, and even moreso as a nurse. I am well aware that there are women in the world who think men have no place in nursing, but they are a tiny minority who doesn't get along with much of anybody. To the extent my gender has been discussed, the reaction of my instructors, my employers, and my peers has been almost entirely, "Good for you--we need more men."

I do believe there are problems in nursing that do need to be addressed, such as unsafe ratios, horizontal violence, and a lack of respect from the public and allied professions. Frankly, I think one of the reasons men are more likely to leave nursing within the first five years is that we are less willing to put up with such conditions. But I also tend to believe that bringing more men into nursing will have some influence to improve some of these problems--which is not meant to say that increasing the number of men will in itself will solve these problems. I am rather tentatively suggesting a hypothetical "male attitude," might, in itself, improve the climate slightly, but I am more confident in speculating that a greater proportion of males would make retaining males more of a priority than it is (a 50% turnover in 5% of the workforce is probably less problematic than a 25% turnover in 10% of the workforce, and certainly less than a 50% turnover in 10% of the workforce) and that a greater need to retain males would likely force nursing to conform more nearly to the standards in other industries. (I am not sure how they compare, now, but a few years ago, an entry-level painter at my facility earned a penny an hour more than an entry-level LPN. I've done a lot of painting. Doing it well takes skill. The skillset is not as varied nor the training as rigorous as that of an LPN. The difference is that a predominently female LPN workforce is willing to work for a penny less than a predominantly male painting workforce.)

It may seem I've made a pretty good argument for nursing administrators to keep men out of nursing. But I think the high proportion of young women in nursing is probably one of nursing managment's major headaches. Young women do crazy, impulsive things like getting married and having kids. If their husband gets a job offer on the West Coast, there are hospitals on the West Coast, too. If the kids get sick, Mom takes the day off. Men are eligible to take FMLA for the birth of a child, but I've never known one to do it. From an employer's viewpoint, it seems entirely plausible that men could bring a stability to the workforce that would at least offset some of the demands we might be more likely to make. Also, on average, we can lift more.

Please note well that I'm not trying to argue that men are better nurses than women. I'm only saying that when we choose to enter nursing, both our peers and our employers have ample reason to welcome us, and my personal experience has been that they do. Some of the same incentives would likely apply to recruiting more of us, but those incentives might lose impact given the statistical likelihood that more of us will try it for a couple of years and then say to heck with that. So I think it may be that a lot of the burden of recruiting male nurses may fall to us, male nurses. Frankly, I'm thinking contacting public schools to see whether they have career days might be one of the most substantial contributions I can make to the future of my profession.

"But my perception of what happened in the 70's is that a lot of young women coming up in the late 60's were open to knew ways of thinking of themselves and created a climate that forced courts and legislatures to accommodate their expectations."

Absolutely!.... but here's the kicker..... in the 1970s, most "male jobs" remained male. And most "female jobs" remained female. The balance you see today in traditionally male jobs (approx. 50% of all college professors are now female, ... slightly more than half of all physicians are now female) did not exist in 1960, 1970 and even most of the 1980s. While those early years are what we often associate with the gender revolution, they really were more symbolic than anything else.

Relatively speaking, all the solo trail blazing that occured in those early years did little more than incrementally increase the presence of "token" female engineers, truck drivers, police officers, etc. The real explosion... the real impact came much more quietly, almost under the radar, in the late 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. It wasn't the big banging SCOTUS cases of 60s and 70s.... it was the circuit court decisions that followed in the 80s and 90s. It was the tv commercials that followed.. It was Murphy Brown replacing Father Knows Best. it was the the slight shift in educational approach (emphasizing female perspective)... BAM!... now, women doing men's work like never before.

Creeping along at 5% to 10% of the nursing profession, those proportions of male nurses will never truly change unless the underlying message to boys becomes different. That message will never change unless institutionalized proaction is taken -- NOT QUOTAS!, but preferences, points, altered message, ...male perspective. Strong outreach and recruitment looking specifically to bring in young men (in the same way major companies were FORCED to do in the 1990s forward, for bringing in young women).

All the bra-burning hoopla of the 60s and 70s did nothing compared to what the massive Human Resource strategy shifts (quietly, company by company, fire department by fire department) did starting in the late 1980s.

Real change comes when real action and intervention is taken. Yes, society definitely needs their trail blazers -- Rosa Parks, Gloria Steinam, MLK, JFK, etc.....

All the racial equality hoopla post civil war era U.S. only produced a nation full of racists.

The real change came many, many decades later when the courts got involved. Nothing really worked until lawsuits were won, and HR executives were fired. Nothing really changed until aggressive recruitment pulled in under-represented populations.

"In terms of the under-representation of men in nursing, it isn't so much that nursing isn't meeting our demands as just that there isn't really that much demand."

Absolutely right!.. there isn't really that much demand. There isn't really that much demand on insisting that men seriously consider nursing as an option. I am not trying to say hospitals are discriminating against men...no. I am not trying to say male nurses face discriminatory practice (although, I am not one and can't really speak to that). My only contention is that society (all of us) have an obligation to support efforts that actively attempt to bring balance to the nursing profession. Just as we (society) have always been asked to support interventions that bring balance to traditionally male professions. When it comes to balancing nursing (or elementary education, or counseling, or day care, etc.) we don't! We don't really care if there are more or less male nurses. Society actually prefers to collectively "think" of nursing as a female job. Intervention is needed -- to benefit society (all of us). NOT QUOTAS...just affirmative action interventions that have already proven to work for bringing balance to traditionally male professions.

"I am well aware that there are women in the world who think men have no place in nursing, but they are a tiny minority who doesn't get along with much of anybody. To the extent my gender has been discussed, the reaction of my instructors, my employers, and my peers has been almost entirely, "Good for you--we need more men."

Absolutely!.. you may be surprised to learn, as well, that there were many many men supporting those trailblazing females in the 1960s and 1970s. The common misconception is that those women only ever faced fierce opposition back then, from men. Some of those most against, most opposed to, female liberation were females.

We need to stop thinking in terms of gender, and blaming. Society is more than the sum of its parts. Society is everybody. Cultural influence is immense. The message that reaches young men, even in this late date of 2010, is that boys don't become nurses, they become football players. The message that reaches young women, thank God, is that they can be whatever they want. Girls have a wide horizon -- one that I think society owes to its boys. Feminism has taught us a lot... let's learn from it.

"I pretty much have to agree with triquee that it is mostly our problem, although I certainly don't buy any implication that it is entirely our fault."

If 5% of nurses are male (95% female), then this is either a "problem," or it is not a "problem."

Assuming this is a problem, then how can it possibly be "our problem?" who is the"our"... are you referring to half of society - the male half? If it is "problem," then it is a "problem" for society (all of us). Regarding "fault," it is not really relevant. Who really cares?

Nonetheless, I have to wonder that if you concur that fault can not rest exclusively at the feet of males, how can you conclude then that the problem belongs to males?

We are all in this together.

Abortion is something I never had to worry about in my life (for me). I am a male. Nonetheless, it has been a major, ongoing problematic legal debate for decades. Every election year, male politicians stand and debate abortion. Society. It is an issue that belongs with society.

Gender balance in all professions is an issue that belongs with society. If it is a "problem" then it is everyone's problem.

"Some of the same incentives would likely apply to recruiting more of us, but those incentives might lose impact given the statistical likelihood that more of us will try it for a couple of years and then say to heck with that. So I think it may be that a lot of the burden of recruiting male nurses may fall to us, male nurses."

Society got involved when it became necessary to ensure females wanted to pursue traditionally male professions. Fire Departments had to build additional living quarters. They had to lower weight and height standards. They had to change protocols requiring a set number of firefighters "man" a fire hose (they are very heavy). Police departments had to make all sorts of accommodations. The military still has a different physical standard for females than it does for males. Why? Because if it didn't, then females could not get in in any great numbers. Accommodations have been made. Efforts have been conducted. Interventions - legal, social and otherwise -have proven effective at getting women in traditionally male professions. It was never as easy and simple as women, individually, just stepping up demanding jobs. The collective message changed.

Equal Employment Opportunity law requires that those hiring employees not hold gender against them -- if an employer tries to avoid female employees for fear she may run off and get married....nope. can't do it. If an employer tries to steer clear of male nurse for fear the turnover rate is higher based on gender (male), ...nope. Can't do it.

About the only place this sort of blatant double standard is permitted, is when it comes time to get car insurance for you sixteen year old son and your sixteen year old daughter. Doh!