It used to be that nurses did not have to go to college; we were instead trained by hospitals. Then the education requirement changed and community college replaced hospitals. And now, it is changing to that some hospitals will only hire nurses with college degrees. Undoubtedly, the education requirement will continue to increase in the future.
The downside to this is that it will make this profession harder to get into. And those who are in the profession will constantly need to adapt by going back to school. The upside to this is that it will provide us with more skills to do a better job.
Market forces tend to work themselves out, don't you worry about that. Nursing managers have their reasons for hiring certain people and they will pay the price, or reap the rewards, for such decisions. Darwinian principles tend to play a large part in deciding which business models succeed and which fail.
Market forces fall on their face in the American healthcare system. Why might that be?
What if a person who was not "academically inclined towards four year college work" wanted to be a physician? Should we simply lower the academic threshold for that profession?
It's not quite the same, since the discussion is about raising the threshold rather than lowering it.
The education should match the scope of practice. If there is a mismatch, then either the education should change, or the scope of practice should.
Also, doctors don't just have to pass a board exam to become an MD. They also take boards for each specialty they want to practice (or in the case of Rand Paul, create their own board, and then get certified by it).
I happen to know that there are many physicians who believe much of what goes into becoming an MD is a joke. They want to do away with a lot of undergrad/med school and get to clinical a lot faster. They often talk about eliminating a few years off of med school and putting that time in hands on clinical experience. Ever wonder why you'll meet MDs who just hop from one fellowship to another? Often it's because they got not near the clinical experience they need for any kind of comfort level in residency.
I understand for the people who have never been to college before, or are newly in the adult working world, that it's hard to get perspective on all of this. Once you gain perspective that comes from working at least 7 years in your profession nursing or not you will come to a similar conclusion. You will feel the fool for having wasted your money and your life on more college when experience in treating patients is all that matters.
I have another bachelor degree and over 20 years in my previous career before my ADN. I certainly don't need a BSN - if you want I'll do a few more CEUs. Done. I could not be more serious.
I don't think that forcing nurses into a corner in this economy is called professionalizing. I view it as extorsion. It's not very practical to push for nurses to go back to rack up more debt in this economy. And what is this economy- dwindling of financial aid, high unemployment rates, high forclosure rates. The new grads can not get jobs, the older nurses without BSN's can not get jobs and all we hear from our so called PTB is to get your BSN- which costs money we don't have. The older nurse- is facing loss of retirement funds that they have saved all their working life for- due to the market, paying for kids in college or these kids have had to drop out because mom or dad or both have lost their jobs and being the age they( mom or dad) are they are forced to take jobs that are far below their real earning potential- underemployed, or if they are lucky enough to be able to swing it/time manage it - get a second job. House hold budgets have been slashed and stretched to the limit. Who are probably buying groceries at the nearest food pantry, house hold needs at the dollar store and clothing from good will. If they have had to file for bankruptcy( read up on the banckruptcy filing rates of the 2008,2009- I was told by a fedral bankruptcy judge during 2008, new bankruptcies were being filed at the rate if 180/month!!! in my state. How do I know this- I filed my bancruptcy in 2008 and I asked the judge straight out. I veiwed it as an opportunity to learn something)) Bankruptcy takes 5 years to PAY off( which puts those backruptcy cases filled in 2008 not paid off until2013), that is if your file a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Chapter 13 allows one to keep their assets and pay off the back due debts( credit cards, overdue taxes- why would these things be overdue??? Unemployment!!!!) and no one will lend some one in bankruptcy money- that ends student loans!!! Where are these ditzy broads in the Nursing power mouths getting their information from--- From others who are as well off as they are.!!! This is totally insensative, lacks any smathering of knowledge of the current state of affairs and totally lacks critical thinking, practicality and common sense!!! if a mom or dad nurse is having to work because a spouse has lost their job and they have outstanding loans or a kid in college- what does one think the priority is going to be??? Letting the mortage or rent go in lieu of another tuition payment- now come on here!! This is not isolated cases; this is what many families from what used to be the middle class is going through and those families who were struggling before all this economic downturn who are worse off then before. When I filed my banckruptcy- one has to go to what is called a 304 hearing- a meeting with the trustee of bancruptcy court or their designee. You wait your turn to be called. It was jan 2009- the room was like a large school cafeteria and it was packed- standing room only. It was filled with middle class peoples- the homeless do not file bankruptcy. I had to stand until my name was called. That is one place one is not alone!!
Let's not even get into what this has done to the number of divorces and parents who have found themselves suddenly single. Look at the mental health issues, homicides, suicides, drug and alcohol issues in this country. And people are supposed to just pull money out of their butts for another bill- 'oh it's ok, it's nursing tuition!!!'
Add in there the loss of health insurance and if there is DM, HTN or other medical issues- where does the money come from to payout of pocket for meds, provider visits or hospitalization- that money tree in the back yard the nursing PTB must have in their nicely manicured yards.
Let's turn our attention to the new grads who now have nursing tuition debt/student loans to pay off that become payable 6 month post graduation- NO job in nursing for them!! Diploma, LPN and ADN programs are not cheap and seem more expoensive when one is forced to take a job in a retail store or waitressing.
i'm not against education. I'm against the 'strong arming' of an already financially crippled large number of people. it seems these tactics are a bit like hoodlumism- hoodlums in Ann Taylor suites, pumps and coach bags and new cars calling themselves a 'NURSE'
No conspiracy theory about it- it's out there in plain view for all to read and see if people would just open their eyes.
I have serious concerns about those who are making all these nursing policies- they just are not up on what is going on- they think every one can afford expensive clothes and nice cars. That's a problem.
Instead of backing off this frivioulous spending of other peoples money for a BSN,they should be looking at how staffing problems can be solved and encouraging other healthcare entities to do the same until people get a financial footing back then push their BSN agenda. Putting their educations to work in the boardrooms and educating the hopelessly dumb on what patient care involves, exploring other options for improving the health state of the frequent flyer patients- through patient education and disease managment and case managment, instead of agreeing with the old washed up prevailing status quo that doesn't work anymore, creating more nursing positions and swaying the CEO and trustees to lower their salaries.
Do I think BSN will give nursing professionization- No. Not at this rate and not from what i have seen. A doctorate couldn't give these broads professionalization. I have a growing disrespect for the Nursing PTB because of all the above- Their outright negligence and stupidity in ones capable of knowing better!!!!!!!!!! They are not furthering nursing at this point in time and not with this agenda in this economic climate. They have lost all credibility with me. Just alot of hot intesitinal gas that they expell.
Market forces fall on their face in the American healthcare system. Why might that be?
Are businesses in healthcare different from any other type of business and are immune from economic principles? Interesting. Maybe you should write an healthcare economics book. I would be interested in reading your new theories.
It's not quite the same, since the discussion is about raising the threshold rather than lowering it.
The education should match the scope of practice. If there is a mismatch, then either the education should change, or the scope of practice should.
Also, doctors don't just have to pass a board exam to become an MD. They also take boards for each specialty they want to practice (or in the case of Rand Paul, create their own board, and then get certified by it).
Altering the scope of practice does not make sense considering the driving force behind creating a unified entry level of education is to professionalize nursing, not to alter the clinical practice.
I think the idea of her statement was to say that we cannot cater to everyone who wishes to become a nurse. Some people were not meant to be nurses, if they cannot meet the minimal standards of the profession then too bad.
I don't think that forcing nurses into a corner in this economy is called professionalizing. I view it as extorsion. It's not very practical to push for nurses to go back to rack up more debt in this economy. And what is this economy- dwindling of financial aid, high unemployment rates, high forclosure rates. The new grads can not get jobs, the older nurses without BSN's can not get jobs and all we hear from our so called PTB is to get your BSN- which costs money we don't have. The older nurse- is facing loss of retirement funds that they have saved all their working life for- due to the market, paying for kids in college or these kids have had to drop out because mom or dad or both have lost their jobs and being the age they( mom or dad) are they are forced to take jobs that are far below their real earning potential- underemployed, or if they are lucky enough to be able to swing it/time manage it - get a second job. House hold budgets have been slashed and stretched to the limit. Who are probably buying groceries at the nearest food pantry, house hold needs at the dollar store and clothing from good will. If they have had to file for bankruptcy( read up on the banckruptcy filing rates of the 2008,2009- I was told by a fedral bankruptcy judge during 2008, new bankruptcies were being filed at the rate if 180/month!!! in my state. How do I know this- I filed my bancruptcy in 2008 and I asked the judge straight out. I veiwed it as an opportunity to learn something)) Bankruptcy takes 5 years to PAY off( which puts those backruptcy cases filled in 2008 not paid off until2013), that is if your file a Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Chapter 13 allows one to keep their assets and pay off the back due debts( credit cards, overdue taxes- why would these things be overdue??? Unemployment!!!!) and no one will lend some one in bankruptcy money- that ends student loans!!! Where are these ditzy broads in the Nursing power mouths getting their information from--- From others who are as well off as they are.!!! This is totally insensative, lacks any smathering of knowledge of the current state of affairs and totally lacks critical thinking, practicality and common sense!!! if a mom or dad nurse is having to work because a spouse has lost their job and they have outstanding loans or a kid in college- what does one think the priority is going to be??? Letting the mortage or rent go in lieu of another tuition payment- now come on here!! This is not isolated cases; this is what many families from what used to be the middle class is going through and those families who were struggling before all this economic downturn who are worse off then before. When I filed my banckruptcy- one has to go to what is called a 304 hearing- a meeting with the trustee of bancruptcy court or their designee. You wait your turn to be called. It was jan 2009- the room was like a large school cafeteria and it was packed- standing room only. It was filled with middle class peoples- the homeless do not file bankruptcy. I had to stand until my name was called. That is one place one is not alone!!
Let's not even get into what this has done to the number of divorces and parents who have found themselves suddenly single. Look at the mental health issues, homicides, suicides, drug and alcohol issues in this country. And people are supposed to just pull money out of their butts for another bill- 'oh it's ok, it's nursing tuition!!!'
Add in there the loss of health insurance and if there is DM, HTN or other medical issues- where does the money come from to payout of pocket for meds, provider visits or hospitalization- that money tree in the back yard the nursing PTB must have in their nicely manicured yards.
Let's turn our attention to the new grads who now have nursing tuition debt/student loans to pay off that become payable 6 month post graduation- NO job in nursing for them!! Diploma, LPN and ADN programs are not cheap and seem more expoensive when one is forced to take a job in a retail store or waitressing.
i'm not against education. I'm against the 'strong arming' of an already financially crippled large number of people. it seems these tactics are a bit like hoodlumism- hoodlums in Ann Taylor suites, pumps and coach bags and new cars calling themselves a 'NURSE'
No conspiracy theory about it- it's out there in plain view for all to read and see if people would just open their eyes.
I have serious concerns about those who are making all these nursing policies- they just are not up on what is going on- they think every one can afford expensive clothes and nice cars. That's a problem.
Instead of backing off this frivioulous spending of other peoples money for a BSN,they should be looking at how staffing problems can be solved and encouraging other healthcare entities to do the same until people get a financial footing back then push their BSN agenda. Putting their educations to work in the boardrooms and educating the hopelessly dumb on what patient care involves, exploring other options for improving the health state of the frequent flyer patients- through patient education and disease managment and case managment, instead of agreeing with the old washed up prevailing status quo that doesn't work anymore, creating more nursing positions and swaying the CEO and trustees to lower their salaries.
Do I think BSN will give nursing professionization- No. Not at this rate and not from what i have seen. A doctorate couldn't give these broads professionalization. I have a growing disrespect for the Nursing PTB because of all the above- Their outright negligence and stupidity in ones capable of knowing better!!!!!!!!!! They are not furthering nursing at this point in time and not with this agenda in this economic climate. They have lost all credibility with me. Just alot of hot intesitinal gas that they expell.
There are always 1,000 reasons why not to do something, sometimes in order to achieve something you just have to do it.
Nursing cannot bend to the needs of every single "poor me" case and in all reality the future must be designed to better the profession, not to suit the needs of the current economy.
There are actual definitions to what a "profession" is and what it is not, determined by social scientists and the like. A BSN does not make you an automatic "professional." A profession and a professional are two different terms with subtle, but very important, differences.
There is actually a logical reason behind the BSN standard, believe it or not.
Nursing is known as a developing profession and not a true profession, largely due to the varying levels of educational requirements.
Are businesses in healthcare different from any other type of business and are immune from economic principles? Interesting. Maybe you should write an healthcare economics book. I would be interested in reading your new theories.
Maybe some people think that economic systems are fully understood, like chemical reactions. Maybe they are wrong in that assumption. Would you like to make a stab at explaining why the incentives in the American healthcare system are so perverse? It applies to hospitals, insurance companies, hospitals, and clinics, my sarcastic friend.
Altering the scope of practice does not make sense considering the driving force behind creating a unified entry level of education is to professionalize nursing, not to alter the clinical practice.
I think the idea of her statement was to say that we cannot cater to everyone who wishes to become a nurse. Some people were not meant to be nurses, if they cannot meet the minimal standards of the profession then too bad.
Yes, I understood. There was a problem with the metaphor.
So, will the profession of nursing continue to include wiping butts and making beds? Would that remain part of the profession? Is there an analog for that in other professions? Architects don't carry crowbars. How about physicians? Aeronautical engineers? Psychologists?
Maybe some people think that economic systems are fully understood, like chemical reactions. Maybe they are wrong in that assumption. Would you like to make a stab at explaining why the incentives in the American healthcare system are so perverse? It applies to hospitals, insurance companies, hospitals, and clinics, my sarcastic friend.
I'll ask again: Why might that be?
I thought you were going to explain why businesses in healthcare are exempt from economic principles? I am sure that you took an economics class and are well versed in economic principles, correct?
Yes, I understood. There was a problem with the metaphor.
So, will the profession of nursing continue to include wiping butts and making beds? Would that remain part of the profession? Is there an analog for that in other professions? Architects don't carry crowbars. How about physicians? Aeronautical engineers? Psychologists?
Professionalization of nursing has nothing to due with clinical practice.
I thought you were going to explain why businesses in healthcare are exempt from economic principles? I am sure that you took an economics class and are well versed in economic principles, correct?
you seem to have economics confused with a hard science, when in fact it's more like a soft science crossed with a religion. Why did take physicists to figure out that behavioral economics matters, that there is a point at which increasing leverage leads to instability and so on? There are very technical subjects within economics, but when random Internet folks (even if they're nursing grad students) start throwing around generalities like "the free market" (with the implication that it always does so-and-so), then the conversation is about to go off the rails.
In all of your studies, have you pondered the peculiar incentives that drive the American healthcare system?
Is there a healthcare system in the industrialized world that's less regulated than the American healthcare system? Is there a healthcare system that costs much more than half per capita what we spend? How many of them have equivalent or worse outcomes, statistically?
Cold Stethoscope
130 Posts
Market forces fall on their face in the American healthcare system. Why might that be?