let's pretend that we agree to disagree on the adn vs bsn debate and start all over again with nursing education. let's call it a "professional registered nursing degree program."
first, answer the poll question: do you believe that the rn's educational needs--both clinical and theoretical--are fully served by today's adn or bsn education programs?
then, tell us what types of courses today's nurse needs in order to be best prepared to enter the workplace.
The only problem with the LPN part is that LPN's ARE NOT used efficiently or Effectively AS a part of the Nursing Team and IF Someone would reallize that LPN'S are VALUABLE AND USE THEM CORRECTLY, the Nursing shortage would be a little lighter.
Okay, I lied. I am participatiing in this thread, because it does seem like a valid question. I graduated in May with an ASN and reasonably good grades--not all A's, but close, and I recently passed NCLEX (yippee!). So, in theory, it seems like I ought to be pretty well prepared to be a nurse. What I'm finding is, I have a pretty good foundation to learn to be a nurse. I can function pretty well independently, as long as nothing goes wrong, but even small deviations from the routine throw me a little, and when something goes seriously wrong, as it did just a few hours ago, at least inwardly I'm on the edge of full fight-or-flight mode.
In my previous job, I had to take a course on precepting new hires, and what I'm going through is exactly what I was told to expect with an orientee. It has been helpful to see that, now that I'm the orientee, but still...
I feel like I went through a pretty good program, but a lot of the emphasis was on passing NCLEX. Which, obviously, is important. Great nurses pass NCLEX. Mediocre nurses pass NCLEX. Even poor nurses pass NCLEX, because if you don't pass, you don't get to be any kind of nurse.
But, yes, I can certainly see value to an education that would let you hit the floor as a fully competent nurse. I just don't know what that would be. I am orienting with some BSN grads, and while I think they're doing great, what they describe is not that different from what I'm experiencing. I wouldn't say any of us were floundering, but it's not easy.
If I had world enough, and time, I think the path I would chart to a nursing career might be CNA-LPN-Diploma RN-BSN. I don't know whether the LPN step would be as necessary to a diploma nurse, but it would certainly have been a helpful step toward an ASN. On the other hand, for me, an ASN was by far the most practical entry into nursing, and I do fully expect to be a competent practitioner--eventually! OJT is certainly an effective way to learn, and given the cards I had, the only thing I would really seriously have changed would be to have done a summer externship, to get more OJT sooner.
So yes, I think each of the entries into nursing prepares us to learn what we need to know, but I'd venture to guess that even diploma nurses have a lot to learn.
The only problem with the LPN part is that LPN's ARE NOT used efficiently or Effectively AS a part of the Nursing Team and IF Someone would reallize that LPN'S are VALUABLE AND USE THEM CORRECTLY, the Nursing shortage would be a little lighter.
That would mean that everyone would have to admit that LPNs are nurses, and quite a few people have a really hard time realizing this.:chuckle
That would mean that everyone would have to admit that LPNs are nurses, and quite a few people have a really hard time realizing this.:chuckle
Yes Yes Yes!
I do, however, like the ladder model for nursing education where one must first be an LPN then ADN, BSN, etc.
Would it help solve anything?
I think so because in my experience, the majority of nurses who have issues with LPN's:
1. Never went through an LPN program and worked as one themselves
2. Had RN educations that did not prepare them educationally to understand LPN role/function.
3. Work in an area where they have very little if any exposure to LPN's.
This lack of knowledge and experience somehow over time transforms into perceived authority and expertise on LPN's and their role in healthcare.
It's scary that some RN's who are in supervisory or charge positions or even in a team nursing environment are often unclear or even clueless altogether about LPN scope of practice in their state and facility guidelines but are getting paid to supervise them.
I worked as an LPN at one hospital in search of a policy on LPN's giving IV push meds. After reading the policy I asked 4 RN charge nurses and supervisors as to what meds LPN's could give IV push and I got 4 different answers. None of them were correct.
Now there's an important chunk of information not being taught in RN programs that needs attention.
Then, tell us what types of courses today's nurse needs in order to be best prepared to enter the workplace.
Just an example of more absurdity in cirriculum ...
My school now requires cultural sensitivity training. That's fine but there's only one problem. It's completely useless since I can't speak the language.
Since I live in California, learning Spanish would make me culturally sensitive more than anything else. There's never enough Spanish speaking staff in the hospital who can translate for you.
Does my nursing school require me to learn Spanish? No. Instead, they teach me what foods Hispanics prefer, their funeral customs, what Hispanics expect from healthcare professionals, etc.
What good does that do when I can't even talk with the patient? It's totally absurd. I usually have to wait for the younger kids in the family who can speak English to show up so I can communicate with the patient.
Of course, I won't have time to learn Spanish until after I graduate because I'm too busy reading useless books on cultural sensitivity, etc. for nursing school.
First let me congradulate you on pursuing your RN. In Texas, the Nurse Practice Act severely limits the scope of practice for you. I think that's a tragedy. I have been fortunate enough to work with several very smart LVNs. The smartest of them have continued their education so they can capitalize on those skills. I started as an ADN, but as you know, whatever pathway one chooses in nursing, you are signing up for lifelong learning. It's how you put it to work for you that makes a difference, for you and those you serve.
Good luck,
RodeoRN.
That would mean that everyone would have to admit that LPNs are nurses, and quite a few people have a really hard time realizing this.:chuckle
Remove nursing programs from all the colleges and universities...take the training and education of nurses back into the hospitals where they should have never left.
Amen to that cheerfuldoer, in reading this thread it keeps coming back to me all the times I as a diploma nurse had to educate the "college" nurses on the art of bedside nursing! There is no better way to learn to be a nurse than to work hands on. Lots of clinical, lots of "see one, do one, teach one".
Too many people seem to miss the point here, it is not who is better or who is worse. What can we do to make it easier for nurses coming up to transition from the classroom to the unit.
First let me congradulate you on pursuing your RN. In Texas, the Nurse Practice Act severely limits the scope of practice for you. I think that's a tragedy. I have been fortunate enough to work with several very smart LVNs. The smartest of them have continued their education so they can capitalize on those skills. I started as an ADN, but as you know, whatever pathway one chooses in nursing, you are signing up for lifelong learning. It's how you put it to work for you that makes a difference, for you and those you serve.
Good luck,
RodeoRN.
Marie, LPN's ARE Nurses! The biggest argument my father in-law ever got into with his Aunt was IF an LPN was a nurse or not (little did he know SHE was an LPN and had been since the very early 1930's she could have been Grandfathered to a RN status, but refused) So as my beloved, sweet and ornery Aunt Marvel would have said it LPN'S are every bit as much Nurse as any RN the only thing is THEY learned it the hard, way through experience and hard work. I am NOT knocking ANY RN out there, I must give you kudos for having the TIME to go to school, I will BE proud to one day stand up and say my name with the RN behind it. I know that RN's have as much to gripe about as LPN's do, BUT if any facility were to truly use the LPN the way they are supposed to be used the shortage of Nurses would be much more tolerable. For everyone concerned.
I absolutely AGREE with you that all nurses should be taught in the hospital setting. Theory is wonderful, but it is just that ,"theory". Put these people to work and see if they can handle the routine. I find it amazing that a school/ college would much rather take an 18 y/o without experience and START them in school than to take an experienced LPN and LET them finish school. The LPN has proven her love for this work meanwhile the 18 y/o has a good case of "I want to be Florence Nightingale) And THEN realizes it is really work and the blood, guts, and beer are not like on the show E.R.
Remove nursing programs from all the colleges and universities...take the training and education of nurses back into the hospitals where they should have never left.
Amen to that cheerfuldoer, in reading this thread it keeps coming back to me all the times I as a diploma nurse had to educate the "college" nurses on the art of bedside nursing! There is no better way to learn to be a nurse than to work hands on. Lots of clinical, lots of "see one, do one, teach one".
Too many people seem to miss the point here, it is not who is better or who is worse. What can we do to make it easier for nurses coming up to transition from the classroom to the unit.
I think that possibly there needs to be more clinical time in hospitals but I still think there needs to be a didactic part of nursing education.
Nurses are required to know indepth pathosphysiology, pharmacology, and they need to know how to interpret laboratory data. While one could pick some of this up in the hospital "on the job", I think it is best done in the classroom setting by serious students who want to learn.
Just an example of more absurdity in cirriculum ...
My school now requires cultural sensitivity training. That's fine but there's only one problem. It's completely useless since I can't speak the language.
Since I live in California, learning Spanish would make me culturally sensitive more than anything else. There's never enough Spanish speaking staff in the hospital who can translate for you.
Does my nursing school require me to learn Spanish? No. Instead, they teach me what foods Hispanics prefer, their funeral customs, what Hispanics expect from healthcare professionals, etc.
What good does that do when I can't even talk with the patient? It's totally absurd. I usually have to wait for the younger kids in the family who can speak English to show up so I can communicate with the patient.
Of course, I won't have time to learn Spanish until after I graduate because I'm too busy reading useless books on cultural sensitivity, etc. for nursing school.
Good points. Had I known when I was in high school that I'd end up being a nurse in Texas I would have taken Spanish and continued with it in college.
And forget about the crap about being culturally sensitive (I too had to sit through those classes in LPN school.)
If I were Spanish speaking only, had a sick/injured family member in the hospital, and had a choice between a nurse who was fluent in Spanish and one who couldn't speak or understand a word of Spanish but was sensitive and aware of my customs, culture, etc. guess which one I'd want?
I'd want the one who can tell me what the heck is going on with my family member!
I absolutely AGREE with you that all nurses should be taught in the hospital setting. Theory is wonderful, but it is just that ,"theory". Put these people to work and see if they can handle the routine. I find it amazing that a school/ college would much rather take an 18 y/o without experience and START them in school than to take an experienced LPN and LET them finish school. The LPN has proven her love for this work meanwhile the 18 y/o has a good case of "I want to be Florence Nightingale) And THEN realizes it is really work and the blood, guts, and beer are not like on the show E.R.
Personally, I would like to see all RN arograms require their students to do an additional year at the bedside (or at least a full semester) doing ONLY patient care and working along side a licensed nurse. I would like to see them take a full patient load (ease into it of course) and really learn what it means to be a nurse. The critical thinking will come but one has to learn what it means to do nursing before one can develop the ability to think critically.
I still maintain that we burn out our new grads because they are ill prepared for the "real world." We need more nurses who can think and do, not highly educated ones who can think and have no idea HOW to do. What good are top level administrators if they have no clue what bedside nurses do?
The cultural sensitivity issue is a good example. Who cares what a person's funeral beliefs are if they are't dead yet? It's more important that I know a few words to get by and that I know I need a trasnslator than it is to know if mother, mother-in-law or spouse will be calling the shots at a birth(another example). It's more important that I know that we have a book in the nurses' station that addresses all the cultural issues. I can (and should) refer to that book as often as necessary, and pass that info on to the nurse coming on behind me.
When I was taking a Masters program (which I decided not to finish) I had to take an undergrad nursing course (because I have a non-nursing Bachelors) called "Asthetics of Nursing." It was the biggest waste of time I have ever seen. Why do I need to waste my time on the virtues of aroma therapy and pet therapy when I could be concentrating on a good physical assessment course? What will make me a better nurse is having bedside assessment skills and then the desire to further myself with additional training in my specialty (like those of us who have gone on to pursue an RNC, for example).
Being well rounded is fine and necessary, but I don't think that this quality makes one a better nurse. The quality of the person is what makes the nurse. Regarding the RNC (and similar advanced qualifications) I have had my patients and family members actually ask me what the RNC means (as opposed to an RN). They are always interested that that means I have taken additional coursework and have advanced experience in my area of expertise. To me, that's far more important than how much and what types of chemistries I took in nursing school.
Don't get me wrong. I think a BSN is great but I think the idea that that would further the profession and make us look more professional backfired. Let's concentrate on turning out some highly qualified bedside nurses and then whoever wants to further or continue their education can do so. Let's support good quality technical skills. The book learning comes along with it.
takniteze
16 Posts
The only problem with the LPN part is that LPN's ARE NOT used efficiently or Effectively AS a part of the Nursing Team and IF Someone would reallize that LPN'S are VALUABLE AND USE THEM CORRECTLY, the Nursing shortage would be a little lighter.