Should nurses strike?

[clint]

Should nurses strike? Would you cross the picket line?

[RNPD]

Look bender, the point is simple-when nurses are faced with unsafe, impossible situations that put their patients and their licenses in jeopardy, they have few choices:

1) they can stay and "make the best of it". This is sure to result in patient morbidity and mortality and increased costs to the facility, not to mention the nurse's personal and professional life and the poor patient. This has been proven by Dr Aiken and endorsed by the AMA thru JAMA.

2) they can leave and seek better conditions-which if you read any studies (try some nursing journals) are not easily found. Something like 85% of nurses polled in a recent scientific survey stated that conditions at their hospitals were dangerous to patient and nurse. Few planned to be at the bedside in 5 years.

3) they can leave nursing altogether. This has been done en masse, as over 800,000 American RNs who are not working as RNs can attest to.

4) they can stay and try to make a difference by whatever means necessary, including at times striking-after exhausting all other possibilites. No abandonment can occur because hospitals have the choice to stop accepting patients and discharge others during the 10 day notice. Patients too ill to be transferred or who arrive at the ER anyway needing critical care, will be cared for by the NURSES WHO ARE ON STRIKE if needed, as long as the hospital requests their expertise. If hospitals decide to try business as usual, it is the HOSPITAL that is failing the patient, not the nurses. BTW abandonment is a legal term-you need to look it up.

Bender you stated previously that you based your opinions on your own observations and a survey of the opinions of your co-workers. I think you must admit that is quite a narrow viewpoint and hardly scientific, and can not possibly be representative of the true state of nursing today. I think you need to do some journal reading (nursing not medical) and other research of well thought out nursing studies. Because while you may be an RN, you obviously think and feel like a doctor, since your work is 99.9% the same as an MD. If your opinions on nursing are not based on nursing related research, how they they possibly be valid?

I choose to stay and fight for my patients and their right to safe and compassionate nursing care. You are right-the face of healthcare IS changing-that doesn't mean the change is for the better. I for one, intend to continue working to IMPROVE nursing care by any means possible-I do it for my children and my children's children-but most of all I do it for my patients who deserve nothing less.

[RNPD]

originally posted by bender73

I am a Nurse Practitioner that admits and follows patients at a large city hospital. The attitude of a lot of nurses is poor and is likely reflective of a large percentage of the nursing community............ My argument is that every time I turn around there is some RN gripe......... I don't just carry 3-4 patients...at times it could be 6 or more

bender do you really think that you can look at the nurse in "a large city hospital" and then base your opinion of all nurses on this small sample? Hardly scientific. Not to mention that since conditions in "large city hospitals" tend to be horrendous, it is no wonder nurses have an attitude. In spite of this they continue to find nurses who will work there-this attests to the true love of patients of so many nurses. I think you have quite limited nursing experience and this leads to your narrowminded viewpoint. Did you even read the articles I and others suggested?

BTW, are you suggesting that the average floor nurse carries "3-4 patients"? If so I think you need to check out the nurse to patient ratio at your facility. Do you even have any idea of how many patients each floor nurse cares for on each shift? I would like you to post those numbers here, so I can get an idea of what they are dealing with.

[fab4fan]

This just stretches credulity; next bender will be telling us that s/he was the "5th Beatle."

I give up on this "debate"...bender doesn't even want to ID himself/herself with the nursing profession (99.9% of function being that of an MD).

Best of luck to you in your professional pursuits, bender (with the way the profession is going, luck is what you'll need).

[pickledpepperRN]

Originally posted by RNPD

legal term-you need to look it up.

I choose to stay and fight for my patients and their right to safe and compassionate nursing care. You are right-the face of healthcare IS changing-that doesn't mean the change is for the better. I for one, intend to continue working to IMPROVE nursing care by any means possible-I do it for my children and my children's children-but most of all I do it for my patients who deserve nothing less.

YES! Thanks to you and thousands of direct care nurses healthcare IS changing.

We don't just "suck it up".

We are willing to WORK FOR CHANGE. For the future of us all!

TEN DAYS is reasonable notice.

"For patient abandonment to occur, the nurse must: Have first accepted the patient

assignment , thus establishing a nurse-patient relationship, and then severed that nurse -patient relationship

without giving reasonable notice to the appropriate person (e.g., supervisor, patient) so that arrangement can

be made for continuation of nursing care by others. Refusal to accept an assignment or a nurse patient

relationship is not considered patient abandonment by the BRN."

[geekgolightly, BSN, RN]

I have read all of these posts and I just want to point out that bender is enjoying getting a rise out of the other posters here and is deflecting all reasonable questions about patient safety and instead focusing in on how to prolong arguement. This debate is not what I had hoped. I am very interested in the long term effects of union vs. no union. Being as short sighted as to accept that right now my luck in finding a job that has a 6:1 ratio in an intermediate care unit in neuroscience with great pay and benefits does not mean that I will always be faced with a patient care ratio that is acceptable. My primary concern will always be the safety of my patient. The primary concern of for-profit hospitals is questionable. Right now, hospitals have to bend to get staffed enough to comply with state and other credentialing regulations. I would like to find ways to permanently ensure good patient nurse ratios while we have some strength. I do not know if unions are best for this. I think unions are, generally speaking, better for the nurse than for the patient, although it is true that both can go hand in hand, especially if the unions are careful. I am not against unions. I feel I don't know enough. And this debate has not helped me at all. I know that California now has laws about patient staff ratios. Does anyone here know what those ratios are and how those laws came to be?

And I think that while nurses can, figuring out a way to ensure that nurses will always be paid a salary that is commesurate with our experience and training is an excellent thing to do now, as well. While the rest of the world is toppling in economic crisis, the nurses have a unique position. They are being recruited. Wined and Dined. It would be great if we could use this time to do some good for future nurses, and for future patients.

[fab4fan]

I'm sorry this discussion didn't go in the direction you needed.

Nurses are being wined and dined for recruitment; the problem is that hospitals don't put that effort into retention, which causes nurses to leave, staffing to become poor, etc.

I wish someone could come up with a solution.

[geekgolightly, BSN, RN]

"someone"

well I think it's us. I just don't feel educated enough to even know where to start researching. My best guess is to look at how patient RN laws were passed. Do you know where to look or do you know if states other than California have done so? Was the union a part of that? Unions aren't strong or even visible here in Texas as far as I can tell.

[fab4fan]

I said "someone" not to toss responsibility off onto another person...geez!

It seems that the things I did were not that helpful, so maybe "someone" smarter than I can come up with a better way.

[sanakruz, ADN]

geek- the laws in CA may or may not be implimented. There are links on other threads about this fiasco. Spacenurse is a memeber of CNA and can help you out with this one. As an LVN I am a memeber of SEIU. I have a sense of loyalty to my union, but the politicing is demoralizing, at best.

My loyalty comes in part I think from understanding the history of labor in the US. It is about the haves vs the have nots, and its about DIGNITY.

I think the key point in this "debate" is that a for- profit enterprise does not have you or yours best interest at heart. jt and others are right. If you dont advocate for your pts you are doing them a disservice. A strike is a WEAPON used against a big fat monster. Scary, isnt it? Scary to think one would ever have to fight for the dignity in our professional lives or the right of other human beings to be adequately cared for.

Yeah I guess this is hyperbole.But geek, without your right to collectively bargain you will be crushed. Unions members are not all about shyt disturbing and striking. A STRIKE IS AN UGLTY THING. Lets hope you never have to be asked to make that choice. But at least you have the choice to make by being a union member.

[bender73]

Bender is not simply enjoying getting a rise out of people's reactions. If that is your take on the issue geekgolightly then you must read again. How can you say that when I have said a few times that I am not trying to do that? If you read other people's comments you would see that others have posted some things that are not very "nice" and obviously look like attempts to get a rise out of me...i.e., the seems someone has missed the point comment or attacking my grammar.

What is a matter with some of you? Do I have to state over and over again that I agree with some of your points? I have said that. However, I am entitled to post my personal opinions on the matter and already some here have agreed with me.

If you don't like my opinion, then I welcome educated and measured responses. I have already gave credit where credit is due, yet most have done nothing but attack me. So you don't like some of my comments, oh well. I don't like some of yours.

This is a debate, not a pissing contest.

Here is another issue that I agree with so pay attention...I agree that my own observations are likely not a large enough sample of the entire nursing population. My counterpoint is that my observations, combined with articles and media, also make up my own pooling sample for my opinions.

Stop with the attacking and stop with the comments that I am only here to get a rise out of people...those comments are unfair and do nothing but degrade the debate.

[RNPD]

geek (I feel funny calling you that!)

There is federally mandated legislation before Congress that is endorsed by the ANA. I don't agree with their proposed law-they want federally mandated guidelines for staffing with input from staff nurses but don't wish to actually mandate numbers. Since we all know how much our "input" is valued by hospitals, I feel this will be next to useless, and have written and told them why. Unfortunately, they were not interested enough in my opinion to acknowledge it. California already has a law on the books that will take effect later this year. I believe the numbers call for 1:5 at first for med/surg, then 1:4 as the final goal. Other ratios were spelled out as well. Massachusetts has an excellent proposed law that deals with ratios, mandatory OT, and other "concerns" of the AHA. Go to http://www.MNA.org to read the proposal. They seem to have a lot of support for the pending bill as well. I believe RI also has laws proposed or pending. Colorado apparently tried a few months ago, but the bill has been tabled indefinitely after 5 chief nursing officers in the state testified against it.

For more accurate info go to the websites of the individual state's Nursing associations. Also look up UAN (United American Nurses) the labor arem of the ANA. Although with this federal proposal I am not too sure that I trust them anymore.

Unions aren't doing so great thus far with improving conditions. I think this is because unions are only as strong as their weakest members and their members are nurses. Nurses are notorious for "suck it up and get it done" when it comes to patient care, and also notorious for not standing together. So at this point, I think our only hope is government regulation-much as I hate to see the government regulate ANYTHING!!

[RNPD]

bender-I asked you a specific question but you haven't answered it. Could you please give me the numbers for the ratios on a med surg floor at your hospital? Please specify shifts as well.

thank you.