Religion Needed to be a Good Nurse?

[Kabin]

We just covered a spiritituality/religion lesson in our BSN course and the instructor (religious) came out and said good nurses had spirituality and would be there for whatever spiritual needs the PT had. I understand the benefits of PTs being able to express their own spiritituality, but not being spiritual myself, I always assumed this could happen without me losing my own identity/belief system by praying with the PT. There are professionals in this area afterall and it's not as if nursing doesn't have enough on its plate already.

So the question is, does the nursing career, with all it's specialized education and skills, also view good nurses to be spiritual/religious or is this instructor taking some liberties with the topic?

[Bipley]

I visited this site and I was HIGHLY impressed with the vast amount of information available on different religions, essays, and such.

But then I went to the Forum and oh my goodness...there's no wonder you have been called so many names!!! These people were ridiculous. Very hateful posts towards one another, unmoderated. Not what I expected from the initial impression of the site. Athiests attacking Christians, Christians attacking atheists, rep vs dem vs communist, calling Americans members of the Taliban...kind of ironic to me that the website is named religious tolerance

:rotfl:

makes this post look like talking about the weather over afternoon tea.

I didn't even realize there was a forum. Not sure I would post about issues such as this in an unmoderated forum, things always get out of hand.

But you are correct, the information they have is amazing. It's very interesting, it's as neutral as I have found (no theist/atheist agendas) and I've learned a lot from going there.

[Bipley]

I have to commend folks here. I have enjoyed reading this lively debate which members so far today have been mindful to self mod. Debates and discussions are wonderful. They are even more wonderful when they remain respectful, despite differences of opinons. Good job, folks. We've strayed a little, but needed to at times in order to get at the meat and potatoes as to why religion is so dear for some and not for others. In relation to nursing, we bring who we are to the bedside. Sometimes it is good to define what we bring to the table and how it may or may not impact the care we render to our patients. Let's keep up the intelligent discussion.

Wow... cool. In that case I have to go back and address a few posts.

[Bipley]

So, for the gov't to say, for example, that you can't hang the ten commandments in a classroom - is an unconstitutional overreach of power.

No, it isn't. It is saying they are not going to deal with issues of religion in gov't buildings. They do have the power and they do have the right to essentially say, "We aren't going to push one religion over another, and we aren't even going to push any religion. You want religion? Cool, there are dozens of churches in most every neighborhood, go there to explore your faith but it isn't going to happen in the gov't."

Think about it, if we permit the big 10 in classrooms, where does it end? Can you imagine if religion were a free for all in schools? It's easy to demonstrate via the Treaty of Tripoli that the laws of the US are NOT based on Christianity. Thus, if we permit religion in schools, can you imagine what school life would be like? The devil worshipers would be killing cats and stringing them up over the black board, the Christians would be praying to the Christian God, the New Agers would be meditating and chanting mantras, the Wiccan's would be dancing naked under a full moon, the Buddhists would sit quietly in a corner meditating, and consider... this would be before each final. :)

Obviously I'm making a point here. ALL religions have their traditional rituals. Prayer, meditation, mantras, dance, spells, etc. Do we really need this in schools? At this point in the US we aren't even doing a good job of teaching the basics. We have kids graduating from high school while reading at a 3rd grade level. Now we want to take away from reading and writing to deal with religion?

On top of that you are going to have 35 different kinds of Christianity in a room with 35 kids. Which brand of Christianity should be the focus? Since the US doesn't have a great track record of "everything in moderation," we have created a necessity to have all or none. Now, unless you want your kid praying to Ra the sun God while chanting mantras instead of learning to read and write, we have to have none.

The US gov't has every bloody right not to want to touch that mess.

I will remind you again, Christianity is decreasing in numbers. Wiccans and atheists are on the rise. If we keep religion out of schools we are assuring our future generations that they won't be saying, "Under Ra" in their new pledge of the future.

Simply put, the concept of Sep of C/S grants the gov't powers the Constitution specifically denied the gov't. To the extent those powers move to the gov't, they are denied to the people.

Nobody is denied anything. Nowhere in the Constitution or the Bill of Rights does it say that religion is part of public schools. Or public anthing for that matter.

Something I don't understand, why in the world is it so important to cram schools full of religion? Are parents not capable of teaching their own children religion? We have become a society where too many parents don't raise their children anymore, society raises them. While I like the concept of it taking a village to raise a child that doesn't mean that the parents can be excluded. We now have social services, law enforcement, and the court systems raising farrr too many children. Now it appears to some that the public schools are responsible for teaching individual religion. We went too far. People need to start raising their own children and taking care of their own religious needs/wants as well.

[Bipley]

It comes down to this: once you give the gov't the power to restrict religion (or any other basic right), ...

Nope, not going to work. The gov't isn't restricting anything. They are saying they aren't going to take responsiblity for religion and that's fair. You are free to worship in your church, in your home, in your friend's homes, you are free to pray in public, your kid is free to pray in school as long as s/he isn't disturbing the class and preventing the learning process from happening... what more do you want? How is the gov't not endorsing ANY religion restricting your religious freedoms?

And let's say that you want to have the big 10 in your kid's classroom. Are you willing to let EVERY other religion put their own big 10 up on the same walls along side of the Christian's big 10? Even religions that feel the US is bad and evil? Many of those folks live here too.

Personal opinion here... it seems to me that since Christians have had to start following the same rules as everyone else they aren't used to that. They are used to the national holidays respecting Christianity and no other religion. They are used to Christianity being an exception to all the rules, the rules that all the other religions have had to traditionally follow. Now that Christianity is expected to follow the same laws as everyone else, many honestly *do* feel persecuted.

If they really are persecuted for following the same laws as everyone else, what does that mean we, as a society, have been doing to other religions all these years? They have had to follow the same laws ... always. Christianity is just now having to follow the same laws. If Christians are being persecuted, what does that mean we have traditionally done to everyone else?

Indeed, this is the core issue of the Supreme Cabal today regarding Justices and Roe v. Wade. An ideological Court was a wonderful idea to Liberals in the 50's-60's, but those same liberals are decrying the potential ideology shift on the Court today.

Roe Vs. Wade was based on a lie. However it brought forth majority opinion. I don't like abortion myself, thus I won't have one. I'm not about to speak for other women. With each Supreme Court member sworn to their office the shift changes and the liberals will always cry out when a conservative person is put in a position of power. However let's be honest here, the conservatives will always cry out when a liberal is put into any position of power. But I'm not so sure it's a bad thing to have shifts. We tend to go to extremes in this county and various shifts put a little more sanity into the system.

And to assert that the gov't can restrict religion also implies that it can enforce religion.

No, it doesn't.

This is precisely why our founding fathers focused on forming a Gov't of Laws. And it is why sep of c/s is so dangerous.

Nawww, it's only dangerous to those who want their own brand of religion plastered over every wall in schools, courts, post offices, etc. To the rest of us, we are thrilled are walls are free of religion, any religion.

[Bipley]

In regards to sep of c/s:

Once you give the gov't the power to limit religion, you give it the power, at its discretion, to limit all religions to the exclusion of the religion of its choice.

Today, the gov't's preferred religion is humanism. But what about tomorrow?

In any case, that is quite Unconstitutional.

~faith,

Timothy.

I still don't understand your thinking here. If the big 10 are not hanging on the walls of the court, specifically, how does this limit your ability to practice your faith?

[Bipley]

I am okay with sep of church and state. It saddens me that they want to remove referrals to God out of our currency, constitution, pledge of allegiance, and such...but mostly because of the historical relevance of it all.

I love history, I think it is a huge learning opportunity. When we forget history we tend to repeat mistakes vs. learning from the mistakes of those before us.

With that said, it is my experience that most people don't realize that words were added to money and the pledge in the late 50's. You didn't, right? Lots and lots of people don't realize that. So what is the true value of keeping the status quo for historical reasons when we don't even know history well as a nation? If we don't really know our history, how is it valid to keep things as they are for purposes of what we thought was history?

I can certainly worship God without seeing the ten commandments hanging in the post office. I wouldn't feel comfortable buying stamps with a statue of Buddha staring at me! haha. (not picking on Buddhists...but it would make me uncomfortable because its not what I believe in)

Fair enough. But what about a Buddhist having to look at YOUR religion's 10 Commandments hanging on the wall? Is it okay for him to feel the same discomfort you express that you feel when looking at the religious symbols on the same wall?

I realize you explain that you are okay with c/s stuff, I understand that. But I am really making a point here more than anything. You say you would be comfortable in a public building with your own religious symbols but not that of another. What about all the non-Christians out there?

What about a hospital setting? Not a Catholic hospital or faith based hospital but say the county hospital. If we did put religious icons on the walls, which ones should we use?

As long as I have the power to post religious symbols in my yard and outside my church, practice freely within my church, and pray in public, then I see no infringment upon my rights.

Fantastic statement. Wish others could see the value in this.

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

As long as I have the power to post religious symbols in my yard and outside my church, practice freely within my church, and pray in public, then I see no infringment upon my rights.

I agree. And this is not infringing on someone else's, when i'm not throwing it in their faces.

[nurse4theplanet, RN]

Fair enough. But what about a Buddhist having to look at YOUR religion's 10 Commandments hanging on the wall? Is it okay for him to feel the same discomfort you express that you feel when looking at the religious symbols on the same wall?

I realize you explain that you are okay with c/s stuff, I understand that. But I am really making a point here more than anything. You say you would be comfortable in a public building with your own religious symbols but not that of another. What about all the non-Christians out there?

What about a hospital setting? Not a Catholic hospital or faith based hospital but say the county hospital. If we did put religious icons on the walls, which ones should we use?

When you break up my post like that to analyze each paragraph you miss the overall message entirely.

I support sep of c/s because I SYMPATHIZE with those who feel uncomfortable with my 'Big 10' hanging in government buildings just like I would feel uncomfortable by the presence of a statue of Buddha, Ra the sun god, or what have you.

Not having Christian religious symbols hanging in government buildings does not inhibit my right to practice my religion and those who fight to have it stay are merely paranoid that the government will interfere with their other religious freedom...however, I believe THAT is unlikely and will be prepared to fight tooth and nail should it happen, but only when the time is necessary...

[Bipley]

When you break up my post like that to analyze each paragraph you miss the overall message entirely.

I support sep of c/s because I SYMPATHIZE with those who feel uncomfortable with my 'Big 10' hanging in government buildings just like I would feel uncomfortable by the presence of a statue of Buddha, Ra the sun god, or what have you.

Not having Christian religious symbols hanging in government buildings does not inhibit my right to practice my religion and those who fight to have it stay are merely paranoid that the government will interfere with their other religious freedom...however, I believe THAT is unlikely and will be prepared to fight tooth and nail should it happen, but only when the time is necessary...

No, I didn't miss the overall message and I happen to agree with you. As I explained, I know you are all for keeping c/s apart and I agree with that too. I was merely making a point. There are LOTS of people out there that want their religious icons on walls of public buildings. I was making a point, that's all. I just wish more folks felt like you.

[nurse4theplanet, RN]

this is why they make private Religious schools...

I am Catholic and I intend to send my children to a private Catholic School, not force those who are not Catholic or even Christian to be subjected to my idealogy.

However, I think public school should require a diversity curriculum as part of their core curriculum which would include such classes as World Religions, Cultural Differences, and Ethics...these should be mandantory IMO to strengthen tolerance of others who are different and produce accepting US citizens... Our children and their values/beliefs are the future of this country, so lets do a better job

[Bipley]

this is why they make private Religious schools...

I am Catholic and I intend to send my children to a private Catholic School, not force those who are not Catholic or even Christian to be subjected to my idealogy.

However, I think public school should require a diversity curriculum as part of their core curriculum which would include such classes as World Religions, Cultural Differences, and Ethics...these should be mandantory IMO to strengthen tolerance of others who are different and produce accepting US citizens... Our children and their values/beliefs are the future of this country, so lets do a better job

I agree. I was raised Roman Catholic and I was never really exposed to other religions. My parents would let me go to church with my friends just to experience other churches but a kid doesn't really get a grasp of what the religion is all about going to church once.

Many people hate out of ignorance, they don't know anything about what they hate but many folks fear the unknown. It's sad because it is so easy to deal with via education.

[VivaLasViejas, ASN, RN]

I agree. And this is not infringing on someone else's, when i'm not throwing it in their faces.

Marie, out of all the posts in this thread, yours make the most sense, IMHO.

In only a few well-chosen words, you have stated exactly how millions of red-blooded, God-fearing Americans (including myself) feel about this issue.

As I personally have said before, other peoples' freedom to swing their fists ends where my nose begins. Sure, it's simplistic, but metaphorically speaking, it means that keeping matters of faith out of public affairs is the only fair solution. Religion, like one's sex life or preference in reading materials, is a private matter and should never be imposed on those who hold a different world view.

No one is proposing to deny us the right to worship in our own churches and homes, pray wherever and whenever we choose, celebrate our holidays and feast days, or live our lives the way we feel is right.

No one is saying that we can't put up a Nativity scene on our front lawn at Christmastime, wear a Star of David, or join a coven. We can even form a whole new religion of our own if we want to. What we CAN'T do is force the government to endorse it, and run roughshod over our fellow citizens who choose to believe in something else, or nothing else.

Now, getting back to the thread's original precept: I think you can be a good nurse without being religious, or even spiritual. But you cannot be a good nurse without bringing to your work what makes you the unique human being you are. You can't leave your soul at home in bed while your brain prioritizes tasks and your hands work to get the job done; you need to use your intuition, your sense of humor, your intelligence, and yes, your heart in order to give the kind of care patients deserve.

And that is all I have to say about THAT.:)