"I want him extubated NOW...I dont care if he's not ready"

Nurses General Nursing

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So here is my new horror story from my unit:

We have this CRAZY family member (the POA), who has barely enough medical knowledge to make her dangerous...we all know the type :)

Background: patient is in severe heart failure, pulmonary edema, intubated on high peep/Fio2, inotropes, awful Swan #'s, not a candidate for LVAD or transplant. We are just trying to stabilize and dry him out, basically.

The POA is aware of this, doesnt care, but wants him extubated bc she read "somewhere" that being on a vent can cause VAP, etc. Ugh.

Here is her list of "demands":

1. That we turn off his sedation, skip weaning, and just immediately extubate (bc of the risk of VAP). She has come into our unit in the middle of the night (thank you, open visitation!) and tried this several times in a row. She doesnt listen to reason from the nurses or MD's (she demands to speak with the MD's at 4 am on the phone btw).

2. After trying to get #1 and failing, she changed #1 to: "well if you have to reintubate him, then thats ok I guess, but I want his ET tube changed out. I think there's some bacteria growing on it":banghead:

3. When we DO extubate him (not like we are going to in his present condition), she wants us to d/c the sedation, then immediately attempt to stand this 350 lb patient up on his feet, wean him standing up in that position hooked to the ventilator, and then d/c the ET tube....all bc she says "at home, he has to be in a high position to breathe". LOL:yeah:

4. She demands to read his chart/lab values/look at his chest xray every day... ok I know she is the POA, but there is still a formal process to view PHI at my hospital, and she hasnt gone through it :nono:

The other day, a nurse caught her smuggling out a urine sample from the patient's foley bag!! When she was stopped and asked what the _____ she was doing, she replied "Dont you worry about it, mind your business." Presumably, she wants to get his urine analyzed somewhere else...who the heck knows for what. It is unreal the kinds of things she has done/demanded.

The whole situation has gotten completely out of hand. Numerous incident reports have been filed, but nothing has been done. My manager seems to be turning a blind eye. We all believe she is setting up to sue (but doubt anything will become of it d/t her crazy behavior--- I mean, obtaining a urine specimen and putting it in her purse?? OMG). The nurses that care for this pt are charting to a "t", noting all her actions, RN responses/actions, and charting the constant phone calls to the MD and unit manger. Every time she comes in, the nurses watch the IV pumps and ventilator like hawks to make sure she doesnt do something really stupid and harm the pt, but they cant police her 24/7.

My question is: what will it take to get this lady REMOVED FROM THE HOSPITAL ?!! Press Ganey can take a leap off a cliff!!

#3-Is she kidding, as well my jaw dropped of my face!!!:banghead::lol2::nono::nurse:

Ohh, doesn't that hurt?!! Poor baby!:chuckle

They gotta do something about keeping this chickie away from the patient - just because she's a POA doesn't mean she's got any sense!:nono:

Specializes in Neuro ICU and Med Surg.

Can't social services get involved and get a restraining order and have a court appointed lawyer act on the patients behalf? I think a judge with any sense would grant one on the grounds of the pt safety. I think I would be calling security and risk mgt asap. What is wrong with your NM? What about the doc? I deffinately would have called security the moment I caught her "smuggling out urine to be tested." Who knows what else she is doing unsupervised. I agree all visits need to be documented and she needs supervision.

I am more and more amazed everyday at the insane things people do when a loved one is sick. I am suprised anyone believes us when we tell them what we experience at work on a daily basis.

Is there anyway the hospital can provide a sitter, not to sit for the patient but to sit for the family member who is a potential risk to the patient?!

Good idea, especially if it's someone with a mean look and built like a linebacker.

Specializes in neuro, ICU/CCU, tropical medicine.
Good idea, especially if it's someone with a mean look and built like a linebacker.

HA! That's why they keep me around - I'm 6'2", 2?? pounds, and practiced snarling with my dog. GRRRRRR!!!

What a crazy! Can you pacify her by telling her that he is getting mouth care every two hours, is having position changes q 2hrs, and you will try sedation vacations if and when he seems able to tolerate it? I agree with whoever said that risk management needs to be involved.

No, no, no, no!!! :no: Unbelievable - my jaw hit the floor! Realistically, I don't think that I have anything constructive to say... It just never ceases to amaze me how absolutely unreasonable patients families can be! I hope that you all can manage to get this lady away from this poor fellow. On a related note, my husband works with somebody whose mother-in-law wanted to take his infant twins out of the NICU (and off the vent!!) because she thought they had spent enough time in the hospital and she wanted them to go home. She really thought it would be OK to take two babies (that had been born at 26 weeks) home - because she knew how to do CPR!!! :banghead: Crazy people!

Please, please keep us updated about what is going on!

Here's what I thought (yes, I'm prepared to get flamed for this):

Although this person is incredibly irritating and demanding, she's not doing anything that harms the patient or interferes with his care. Family members make demands all the time, ranging from reasonable to insane, and clearly she is two steps past the "nutso" line. However, from the story presented, when her demands are not agreed to, she doesn't take any actions that would hurt the patient (such as attempting to extubate him personally). All in all, her actions appear to be crazy and annoying, but not dangerous.

She is this man's POA. This means that it was his desire that she make his medical decisions. In order to get guardianship, it would have to be shown that she was acting in a way that was dangerous to the patient. Irritating the nurses and doctors with unreasonable demands does not constitute "dangerous behavior".

Probably the reason that no one is "doing anything" is because there is nothing to be done. Document everything well so that when she sues you (which she certainly will), you'll get out of the situation cleanly. Other than that, I don't see anything to be done.

Here's what I thought (yes, I'm prepared to get flamed for this):

Although this person is incredibly irritating and demanding, she's not doing anything that harms the patient or interferes with his care. Family members make demands all the time, ranging from reasonable to insane, and clearly she is two steps past the "nutso" line. However, from the story presented, when her demands are not agreed to, she doesn't take any actions that would hurt the patient (such as attempting to extubate him personally). All in all, her actions appear to be crazy and annoying, but not dangerous.

She is this man's POA. This means that it was his desire that she make his medical decisions. In order to get guardianship, it would have to be shown that she was acting in a way that was dangerous to the patient. Irritating the nurses and doctors with unreasonable demands does not constitute "dangerous behavior".

Probably the reason that no one is "doing anything" is because there is nothing to be done. Document everything well so that when she sues you (which she certainly will), you'll get out of the situation cleanly. Other than that, I don't see anything to be done.

TiredMD, I doubt you'll get flamed. This seems like mostly a vent thread with a call for some ideas on how to handle the situation.

Here's what I thought (yes, I'm prepared to get flamed for this):

Although this person is incredibly irritating and demanding, she's not doing anything that harms the patient or interferes with his care. Family members make demands all the time, ranging from reasonable to insane, and clearly she is two steps past the "nutso" line. However, from the story presented, when her demands are not agreed to, she doesn't take any actions that would hurt the patient (such as attempting to extubate him personally). All in all, her actions appear to be crazy and annoying, but not dangerous.

She is this man's POA. This means that it was his desire that she make his medical decisions. In order to get guardianship, it would have to be shown that she was acting in a way that was dangerous to the patient. Irritating the nurses and doctors with unreasonable demands does not constitute "dangerous behavior".

Probably the reason that no one is "doing anything" is because there is nothing to be done. Document everything well so that when she sues you (which she certainly will), you'll get out of the situation cleanly. Other than that, I don't see anything to be done.

No flame here, just another viewpoint.

I work with families all the time that are crazier than the one admitted. Here is my take: The bottom line is that the POA-HC is *supposed* to act in the best interests of their charge, unless there is some reason in writing that makes sense, such as: pt declines transfusions, this is noted on the POA-HC document and the agent is simply carrying out their charge's wishes.

When they have gone this far off the deep end, and are pushing for things that are patently unsafe for the pt, my institution initiates guardianship proceedings and guides the crazy agent out the door with a "no trespass". This is not common, I haven't seen it a lot, but it does happen. I can't think of any judge that would not endorse this. And thank heavens for it when we need it on behalf of the pt. :bowingpur

Specializes in neuro, ICU/CCU, tropical medicine.
I'm prepared to get flamed for this

Nope.

We need to realize that when family members are acting out like that it's (usually) because they want what's best for the patient. If we dig our heals in, we miss the opportunity to explore that person's fears and educated them - and ourselves - on the proper care of our patients.

I've been in situations where I have had other nurses angry with me because I have defended a "PITA" family member or patient - but it sure made care of that patient a lot easier for me!

What a crazy! Can you pacify her by telling her that he is getting mouth care every two hours, is having position changes q 2hrs, and you will try sedation vacations if and when he seems able to tolerate it? I agree with whoever said that risk management needs to be involved.

I don't think it would make a difference, since I'm sure that lady has had a LOT of teaching that she obviously didn't listen to. It's too bad she had to be the POA, since she is a dangerous PITA.

Specializes in Cardiac.

I'm sure TiredMD would feel differently if he were the one being constantly called at 4am to pacify her.

I see an unplanned extuabtion in this pts future-I think a sitter is a wise idea.

Anyone who steals urine out of a foley (which interferes with my I/Os among other things), just shows that she's willing to cross any line to reach her 'agenda'--this is what makes her dangerous.

Our first responsibility as nurses is to protect the patient. She needs to be watched like a hawk.

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