karenchad

I'm sorry to say NO I wouldn't- I think nursing students should get the real hands on clinical experience that I and many others got 30 years ago in a diploma program. I know that not a popular conviction nowadays I just don't see how you can teach someone how to ride a bike with out a bike. All the other fluff is nice but it's meaningless with out a solid foundation- teach about foley insertion, show foley insertion, do foley insertion. There is an art to teaching. I asked a nursing instructor up on the unit I was on about 1 year ago- why there is such a shortage of nursing instructors- her answer was; because students are sueing the instructors for failing them. Since when is that allowed- if you don't know something- especially with someones's life at stake, why would you think your instructor would pass you?? If you are not going for extra help, or asking a question, are you really interested in the course material? maybe the student should aske themself- am I nursing material??( I think now a days it's phrased- a good fit to me that's a description of a bra not whether someone belongs in nursing or not)

Did any of you nursing students/new grads complain about this to your state nursing association or board of nursing? What did the school teach in exchange for all that tuition money they collected?

This is unforgivable for a nursing school

I think nursing education should go back to diploma hospital based nursing programs, where a student nurse can get a realistic idea of what nursing is all about, the good, the bad the ugly, the reality- the patients, the bedside, the proceedures, the preps, the meds, the calling for orders, looking up the labs etc. Leave the BSN degree education for some one who is already a practicing NURSE- some one who reality/culture shock has already hit and left- some one who can say- ok, now where do I want to go from here. I think the hospitals should go back to the old practice of NO NEW GRADS in a speciality area until they have atleast 1 year of a solid med/surg foundation- none of this- learning how to put a foley in in an ICU enviornment. By the time a nurse is in ICU they SHOULD already have mastered the foley insertion. I think this burns out both new grad and preceptor. The ICU is not the place to be learning basic medication interaction and lab interpretation, the ER is not the place to learn signs and symptoms, that should already be known. How can you learn the more advanced stuff if you don't have command of the basics. The only reason why new grads were suddlenly allowed to go into speciality ares instead of the traditional med/surg first was the shortage of nurses in those areas. This system doesn't function anymore. The needs of high acuity patients vs. inexperienced nurses is not working anymore. It's frustrating all involved. The whole system is screwed up.???

To PICUPNP- I don't mean to scare you- but my former union Pres. ( an ER nurse) from 1980-2002 moved to TEXAS. Merry Christmas from Philly!!

A union DOES have the right to view personnel files, if the union has reason to believe that diciplines, terminations, layoffs etc. are suspicious in nature ( complaints from their unionized staff nurses) they most certainly do have the right to view those files. Incidently, this is where a large % of union dues are spent- management's screw-ups, defamation of character, and failure to play by US GOVERNMENT established LABOR LAWS- we do have them( U.S. Department of Labor.gov.) If I were a part of a 'dirty' management team now a days, I'd be afraid of union talk too.

To PICUPNP- With an advanced degree I would think one would have learned to express one's opinnions with more eloquence and restraint. I think all on this forum are entitled to their opinnions- which are largely based from one's own experiences- some more vast than others. You sound more AFRAID of union's, possibly because you have no experience with them. This discussion is not so much about who wears a lab coat or not , however, there IS a difference in the treatment of the wearer of one- sorry to let the cat out of the bag! This discussion is about fair wages, safe staffing, playing by US government labor laws, and workplace violence ( blatent disrespect on management's part to their staff nurses) Since management also has advanced degrees ( whether they be business administration, or nursing) their behavior does not speak too well for their education. So what can one conclude from this- that advanced education gives one the right to ignore the personal rights of others??!!. I have always thought the sign of a truely educated person was being able to listen with an open mind, possibly learning something from the DIAGLOG, but at the very least respecting the other's opinnion with out attacking them. I think the tone of your posts makes a good case for why unions are needed, with or without the 'labcoat' and doesn't make too good a case for advanced nursing degrees. I'm offended by the tone being a felllow RN.

I must not only be misinformed but visually hallucinating also- all the Nurse Practioners ( male and female) I have come in contact with in 4 different hospitals 2 hospitals in the same healthsystem- have all worn white labcoats and street clothes- cardiovascular surgery, pulmonary medicine, cardiology. It's the PA's that don't. Maybe you should actually do some research and stop bad mouthing something you know nothing about- unions! Maybe your wife doen't mind taking on more patients than a safe assignment ratio and jepordizing her license- she has you to support her if she looses her license and can't work and pay the bills. Maybe your in a nursing or physican management or administrative position where your influence protects her from the unscruplious tactics of management that the rest of enjoy on our own.

Pediatrics doesn't seem to be having a problem with lack of hiring, or short staffing issues- the papers here in Philly are full of open positions for peds bedside nurses and PNP's( pediatric Nurse Practioners). It's us nurses with the hospitialized adults that are running around short handed, and treated like crap when we do. We get the crap from all angles- patients, doctors, families, management. The Nurse Practioners dont. I have nothing against nurse practioner's and have stated my support for them on other threads. I feel the reason the Nurse Practioner doesn't get the same disrespect that us bedside nurses do is probably the "white labcoat'. Many patients and families mistake them for doctors(who they would NEVER speak to the way we 'nurses' get spoken to) I think it would be interesting to see how the NP would get spoken to if they would were just scrubs and no lab coat. Some families, patients are just plain confused about the NP/APN role. If the NP would just wear scrubs, go into the patient and say Hi, I'mm ...., YOUR NURSE ( not as a nurse aztached to or belonging to a doctor) or ONE OF THE NURSES taking care of you- see what they get in terms of treatment. I, also, don't know of any Nurse Practioners who are not considered management . I don't see too many nurse practioners in the adult patient population doing bedside nursing either. I work with a bedside nurse who just left Texas- she was a ped's nurse and states the pay is very poor there. Texas always seems to have many travel nursing assignments when the rest of the country has little to none, and looking at the travel nursing rates, I can see why- I'm not going to Texas or anywhere else for $28.00/hr, even if we do have 2 feet of snow here in Philly!!

The majority of nurses have listened to the frightening scare tactics of the management. The majority of the nurses in our country are not familiar with a union or how a union works. Management has put these horror stories out there. Nurses have the right to organize, have the right to information, have the right to read it ( because we nurses live in the USA and are able to read). If a group of nurses want union literature they have the right to it. Maybe those "union Members" running through the halls of the sacred hospital in scrubs are indeed NURSES. They probably are nurses who have decided to get together to form a union because they are FED UP (with this crap= the way management is running things and screwing the nurses and patients), contacted the nursing union leadership , got the literature and are distributing it in their own work place. And will hold 'organizational' meetings and ALL the nurses in the entire place will have a chance to vote- union: yes or no. As pointed out= if we nurses are so happy with management's ways, why is there talk of unions. Happy people do not complain! May be we nurses are not as dumb as management thought we were= BIG CEO salaries, profits, bene, bonuses, unemployed nurses, stressed out nurses that are left, patients dropping dead in ER's- poorly staffed- the list goes on!! These are FED UP Nurses- Go Girlfriends!!!

My old union nursing contracts all had the opening statement-'Management reserves the right to run it's busines as it deems necessary' The union agrees to that , HOWEVER, the union and management sits down at a bargaining table and hashes out, bargains and negitiates - pensions, wages, days off, vacation time,sick days, health insurance, pay for charge nurses( because it is an added responsibility/accountability) shift diff's, working conditions- staffing ratio's. regulation of diciplines, councelings, terminations, lay-offs. The nurses union protects the nurse from unsafe practices- floating a med/surg nurse into L&D9 I think we all agree on this forum that doing that is an unsafe practice! Do we not? if you are a non union aka, 'at will' institution, management can do that and if you do not go to L&D you are suject to termination for insubordination.) The nursing union DOES NOT tell each nurse how to practice ie. start IV's with gloves on, however the union will make sure management has those glove available for your use, if you choose not to wear them- that's your business. If you are a union nurse-management has decided your unit will be giving chemotherapy from now on( management still has the right to make that decision with a union contract, however, the union says- if you want these RN's to give chem, you must provide them with a course that makes them competent to give chemo, if a union Rn refuses to give chemo because she has not had the course yet, management may write that nurse up, however, that nurse has the right to go to the union and complain, tell their side/ no course, no give chemo, the union representative goes into the NM office with the RN, the RN takes the write up, but the union files a greivance against the write-up stating "unfair labor practices/unsafe nursing practice, the union can take this write-up through a 'formal' dicipline process all the way up to arbitration- very costly now the write up is in a state labor office before an arbitrator(a labor lawyer/ or retired judge who will be paid his fee, if management looses, they pay)this arbitration is held with union leadership- local pres. district or state pres., union lawyer, management- HR representative, HR director, may include the NM who is dumb emough to ask a nurse to give chemo with no training) the same goes for a staffing issue- if the union membership- the staffer RN's who are paying their dues want safe staffing ration's and have this negitiated and put into their contract( which Is agreed to by both sides- NOTHING in that contract is not agreed to by BOTH sides) and the management goes against the mutually agreed upon terms of contracted safe staffing ratio's( not calling a nurse in when they are available, making the other nurses work short handed)- that is a greivance. This is a very easy grieviance for the union to win ( winning is= the nurse that was available to come in and was not called gets paid for that day) as it is put in black and white and in a legally binding contract signed and agreed upon by both union and management and stands up in court! I can remember the union going down a list of RN's for my unit, calling us at home and asking us if we were called to come in for a unit that was short staffed and NO ONE was called to come in for the OT. Every one on that list that would have come in got paid for the day in question!! Management stopped that shinanigans right quick. A union will not allow nurses to work with dangerous staffing level while the CEO, cut staffing to keep their fat paychecks. If nurses are needed they are going to be provided. there was none of this business of new grads working for free, in exchange for experience. I could see my former union Pres ( an older ER RN) marching into the nursing office over that one!! If any nurse is working they are getting paid according to the contracted payscale. The union has nothing to do with this customer service crap, or management's profit margin, or medicare/medicaid fraud- that is entirely on management. If management wants to charge a patient $300,000 for a Flu shot, that's between management and the insurance companyand/or the fed's. the union is not involved.( the union may laugh their butts off when the hospital gets questioned and fined).

To woodenpug- I'm taking your comment to my post as sarcasm. I assure you I was not trying to be funny. I am only commenting on some people think unions make things better, some people think unions make things worse- Bottom line: when there is a union present: the management watches it step. When nurses are diciplined in a unionized hospital- management has to play by rules. Disciplines, counselings etc take place with a union representative. It has to be ligitimate- if the staffer and the union rep feels the counseling is unfair in any way, a greivance is filed, ie. management can not accuse a nurse of a perceived wrong doing if the nurse was not in the building/their day off. If that nurse can prove that- that is a major issue between the union and management. If such a discpline results in a suspension or a termination of that nurse (which it has happened) and the nurse can prove it, the union does the nurses fighting with management for her/him and the end result is: the nurse gets reinstated WITH BACK/LOST PAY!! (not having to go out on her own and pay an attorney their fees) These are the kinds of situations that make me state: a union acts as a watchdog. And the union will keep tabs to make sure that no further actions to that nurse occur- retaliation (yes, it does also happen.) Management/Managers have been known to get down and dirty. Especially when a union makes management PAY OUT MONEY for managements screw ups. Now a day example: an older nurse gets given less a desirable shift, or is 'expected' to float every time there is a need, and other younger staffers don't have to: the expectation is not the same - that is a greivance/ age discrimination. With out a union, management can and does do whatever they want to. The personality conflicts between the staffer do not get to the extemes (ending up in the NM office being told- 'you are not a good fit' ) That 'good fit' crap must be ligitimately defined and must be JOB related. The bullying because some is looked at as being crooked teeth, overweight, too slow, too old, too young, less glamorous, too smart, less smart whatever- doesn't cut it. If they can do their JOB- shut up and leave them alone! If a nurse reports something to management and management does not do anything about it and some major issue arises- the union asks why. If an institution is laying off, restructuring THE UNION HAS TO APPROVE OR REJECT IT. I know this first hand both as a union nurse and a non-union nurse. No way on earth would all this buyout, layoff, termination, hiring freezes would have gone on if there were more unionized nurses. As a union nurse back in the 1990's our small hospital was merging with another small hospital (the later was being closed) meaning nursing positions were lost. We all were given 'packets' with list of positions, according to seniority, we were able to bid on(ie. as a 10 year med/surg nurse, I could not take a position from a 10 or 20 year ER nurse. If that 10 or 20 year ER nurse could do my Med/surg job they could have taken my position) Unions do put the breaks on management. If there is a hiring freeze and the union defines staffing levels unsafe as per negotiated contact terms- the union can demand management hire into those open positions. If I am a new hire- HR has to offer me wages per the union negotiated contractual payscale- not what that HR person or NM Joe Smow thinks I'm worth. All I am saying is there are mutually(contractually negotiated) rules that both side must play by. The contract will state in writing- This is a legal and binding contract agreement between....and .... And both side's( union and management) representatives must sign it. there is no love triangle. This contract stands up in court.

It's very difficult to say anything nice about a non-union institution-with the current happenings in the nursing job market. Big bucks for CEO's salaries, perks and bene's, nurses out of jobs. Nurses terminated 'at will' 'not a good fit' aka. personality crap. This has knd of sunk the management battle ship. These are not little faux pau's these are major - illegal labor practices and swindling, stealing,embeseling, money laundering, profiteering. For better or worst- unions tend to be watchdogs. a union is only as good as it's membership- you have to be involved, being a union member is NOT a spectator sport.(you need to voice your needs and wishes to your union leadership and contract negotion team. They usually send out a survey long before the union contract is up to find out what us, the members want from management- job security, pensions, salary increases, MANAGER responses and action to NURSING concerns/short staffing accountability, it's not all about money- working conditions are a big part of it too- break and lunch times with coverage, vacation, personal days, bearevement days, sick time)managers must watch the way they speak to you, union representation during diciplines, counselings. Ligitimate reasons for terminations(Like stealing a boatload of narc and killing patients/malpractice not this 'not a good' fit crap because they don't like your scrubs or your too old)

The union I was a member of started out back in the early 1980's- it was a radical idea back then. Our officers and shopstewards grew into their positions- with training and workshops, they learned the rules of the labor and were on the dirty tactics of management. They were a cohesive team- they worked hard for us. They put the breaks on us med/surg nurses being pulled to maternity,peds- places we were not oriented to go to. It helped bring about the crostraining issue- if you want a nurse to float/ crosstrain the nurse. Orientations became more organized and detailed. Not here's your PPD, here's your book and there's your unit, go to work. Nursing salaries were brought up to a respectable level. The issue back then that was not addressed was the lateral violence/bullying, eating thier young. It's 30 years later nurses are more polically savy, especially with the nursing employment situation and lateral violence has come out of the closet.

Short staffing should ALWAYS be documented, along with a phone call to the Department of Health. My state has a 1 800 number to call - when I worked in a nurse unionized hospital- that number was called ALL the time. we staff nurses had 'short staffing forms' we filled out, called the 1 800 number, notified nursing supervion we were filling out the form, the supervisor had to sign the form, the form was handed into the union officer or steward, the union investigated the insident, and it went through the process(greivience) from there- if nurses were cancelled(whether scheduled or OT sign up) if the union won the greivence- the nurse who lost the hours was paid for hours lost. The union won most of these. This, plus benefits and retirement benefits are 3 main reasons why administrations don't like unions- the administration suddenly becomes ACCOUNTABLE. When short staffing is documented(union or non union) you have notified the administration that conditions are unsafe, and they are now the bearers of the responsiblility and accountable!!