guest1146168

This. Exactly. The first amendment is the right to assemble *peacefully* in public places. There have always been limits on this, implied as in PUBLIC places (you don't get to block hospitals), PEACEFUL (as in leave your hunting rifle at home) As they say, you can't yell FIRE! in a crowded theatre. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If it's not a political stunt, and they want to get back to work in so much as they're willing to be out in crowds, then dilly on out to any of the thousands of open positions for essential workers ranging from big box stores, pharma and groceries, to LTC facilities. Problem solved, right?

Oh, clearly that's all it is. https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/26/politics/maryland-disinfectants-coronavirus-larry-hogan-donald-trump/index.html

Data itself doesn't point to anything. It has to be analyzed and crunched and with CORVID the models are complex. Where is the death rate small in your book? I'm still seeing 5-10% pct fatalities pretty consistently. Did you have a citation to this model showing "herd immunity building up" all as most of the nation is on lock down? I haven't seen that either.

Hope springs eternal Ispose' ?

I'm beginning to think we are on different planets breathing air of a different atomic composition.... Approx. 1/3 of the US population is 50 and over last I knew. Now consider in people under 50 with asthma, hypertension, obesity and other high risk factors for complications/death from CORVID 19, and we're likely talking about 75m people who are at risk. As to why we protect them, assuming you can't do so out of moral character and/or desire to live in a civil society, is that the binary choice you are presenting of you or them (economy or public health) is a false one. Once again, the economy cannot be functional until the virus is contained with mass testing and tracing capability so that decisions on what can safely resume without instilling spikes and waves of infection can be made intelligently and in a way that instills faith and confidence instead of flying by the seat of your pants and hoping God is on your side to avert disaster.

True, and in a sane functioning country that wasn't so polarized we would be able to enact sensible legislation for public health and direct resources toward food deserts without the regular parade of demagogues out on AM radio and a certain cable network screaming about how it's supposedly SOCIALISM and tyrannical government infringing on their liberties to be chronic cohort slobs.

If we have to wait for WHO or anyone else to deliver it in third grade PPT format on a silver platter and force them to take it seriously, we were already in deep deep stuff. I suggest there's a whole lot of evidence that points to the larger problem being that the early warnings were missed or disregarded because former expertise in the form of pandemic surveillance had been disassembled and there was no one at a leadership level that would listen until it could no longer be denied months later and there was a concern it would hurt them politically. I'd also note that the purpose of pandemic response teams and leadership responsibility is not to keep the virus from ever reaching your border to so much as contain it when it does. SARS COV 1 spread to over 2 dozen countries. And yet the USA managed to contain it to under 200 deaths , not because it was any less contagious. at the time the CDC had resources and competent resources and had quickly put 800 top experts to work *with* WHO , rather than expecting WHO to spoonfeed them. https://www.CDC.gov/sars/about/fs-sars.html

Sweden hit a daily high of deaths just under 200 this week. In a country with a population of less than the NY metro area, I'm not sure I'd consider that a smashing success. It's certainly substantively higher than it is in any of their neighboring Scandinavian countries.

My thoughts exactly.

Except, the supposed "gaffe" was by the President of the United States on National Television in a Pandemic Response Information Briefing and there are reports of deaths coming in across the country that people have actually injected themselves with household disinfectants.... I'm also wondering why you would say no President , alleged business billionaire or not, would be prepared to handle this, when both prior Presidents of both Political Party did exactly this: George Bush with the first SARS virus and Obama with the Swine Flu and Ebola.

I didn't say he got reports in November, I said, and provided earlier citations that the Administration was getting live data dumps from WHO via American CDC personnel within the organization. A competent Administration would have been on top of that. No, I don't expect the POTUS to be able to be an expert in quantitative statistics and predictive models. But I do expect him to appoint people to his Cabinet that do and certainly would have known better as to advise him against gutting funding for the CDC, disassembling a top notch pandemic response team, and firing the person who was working in China specifically to be the eyes and ears of zoonotic outbreaks. amiclear?

The medical community of China, with all their whopping 3 month advantage, has actually been quite cooperative in publishing and sharing their medical findings ranging from CT studies of patients to emerging evidence of re-infection or latency. If the government hasn't , it's probably because they, along with our good friend Uncle Vlad of the USSR/Russia, among other nations are in a competition for producing a vaccine. Whomever gets the patents on it after all has a gold mine. Always a bear when politics gets in the way of progress, amiright.

That "Fauci guy" biography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Fauci Excerpt: Anthony Stephen Fauci ( /ˈfaʊtʃi/; born December 24, 1940) is an American physician and immunologist who has served as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) since 1984. Since January 2020, he has been one of the lead members of the Trump Administration's White House Coronavirus Task Force addressing the 2019–20 coronavirus pandemic in the United States. Fauci is widely seen to be one of the most trusted medical figures in the country.[1][2] Fauci is widely recognized as one of the world's leading experts on infectious diseases.[3][4] As a physician with the National Institutes of Health (NIH), Fauci has served American public health in various capacities for over 50 years, and has been an advisor to every U.S. president since Ronald Reagan.[3] He has made contributions to HIV/AIDS research and other immunodeficiencies, both as a scientist and as the head of the NIAID at the NIH.

As STEMI folks say "If you think reality is a harsh mistress, try denial".

He got direct data dumps from Americans from the CDC working from WHO as far back and November. An entire host of credible documentation attesting to both Azar and Navarro warning him with models as to exactly how devastating this could be in December (Azar) and Navarro (January). So , yeah, he knew and he got the best information there was at the time. There was no reason to wait for WHO or some archangel from heaven to hand deliver him an engraved crystal. To me it all comes back to people are paying a price, and will continue to, for not respecting how hard governing is and how much experience and good intent matter. As a radical moderate who leans center-left or center-right depending upon the issue at hand, I didn't think Trump had the moral character or a genuine interest in Governing . I chose to listen to the warnings of those who knew him best; New Yorkers. But for me it isn't about that. I didn't vote for W. Bush either, but I can certainly honestly discuss what he did well and not so well and I neverdoubted his loyalty to the country for a moment.

Well, that Is exactly what happened, though the blame WHO effort seems to be running out of steam and Alex Azar seems to be the next smoke bomb. Again, no fan of Azar's at all, but then again last I looked the Secretary of Health and Human Services is appointed by the President.

Well, it looks like he's gone now as the headlines now are the WH is going to replace him. Given that will be the 3rd HHS in < 3 years and the way appointed heads of every Cabinet come and go as if Houdini were POTUS, not really all that surprising. OTOH f the blame WHO thing is running out of steam. I am no fan of Azar whatsoever understand. and yet if only by default, I am far bigger a fan than I am of Seema Vera, the likely replacement.

Guardian reporting on source of beach cure.?‍♀️ https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-leader-group-peddling-bleach-cure-lobbied-trump-coronavirus

I guess we could ask the Hedge Fund Club and Inherited Wealth folks to cough up their first tax dollar since Bill Clinton was President (incidentally the last time we saw a national surplus instead of deficit) but then again, that would probably be socialism. OTOH, my father didn't leave me so much as a NOTE when he died, but somehow I'm in one of the highest tax brackets there is. Go Figure. And I'm not "up to my ears in debt at all". Then again I learned my lesson in the last time so at the end of 2016 I moved into liquid and conservative investments. No regrets. We live simply in a small home, have a paid off economy car and cook our own predominantly vegetarian meals. I recommend getting used to this by the way. All this noted, I fully agree there was no sense in the Govt throwing trillions of dollars out there with no meaningful oversight and spending the next 2.5 generations SS and Medicare on it, just to make it look like they were doing some. The annual deficit was ALREADY at almost 2 trillion dollars before they just spent another 4.5 trillion. Yes, yes, we're screwed.

Agree. Need to know the prevalence zip code by zip code and have the infrastructure in place for the testing AND for the tracing and containment. You don't drive blindfolded without GPS and you don't play Russian roulette with Daddy's pistol if you are expecting a happy ending. Even then count me among the people that think the post Corvid19 world is going to look very different and only the fittest will survive. And I don't mean health wise. I mean agility to change and able to turn on a dime as never before. Incidentally headlining that we're about to get the 3rd HHS Secretary in < 3years. Don't get me wrong; I can't blame anyone replacing Alex Azar but I'm thinking we can predict the next round of pass the buck threads.

We've been through this already. POTUS received info via Americans from the CDC working within WHO last November, from HHS Azar in December, from Navarro in Jan, etc. Easily verifiable and citations have been provided over and over. This along with the well documented hierarchy of statements from President himself who was calling it all a hoax as late as the second week of March. While my intent is not to upset you and grind axes. I'm also not going to reinvent history as doing so adds no value for any of us.

SARS rapidly spread to over 2 dozen countries including the USA. W. Bush, as the POTUS was lead of the national response to contain it within our borders and he did that remarkably well, which you can do when you fill your cabinets with highly competent experienced people in an Administration serious about governing. I haven't seen anyone suggest we keep over 17million people home for years.. What I'm seeing the medical experts say, and agree with, is we need to contain this by 1) immediately implementing mass testing so we even actually KNOW how prevalent it is and where and can make intelligent decisions about what is safe and isn't rather than guessing and hoping that God is on your side 2) when someone does test positive you immediately trace where they've been and who they had contact with (that's the containment component) It is worth noting that the countries that HAVE been able to contain either before a full blown-outbreak (South Korea, Finland, New Zealand, Germany, Iceland) or afterward (China, France) accomplished it precisely through this test and trace method. Not very difficult in concept but it does need to be coordinated between the Federal Government and the State Government, rather than just dumping it on the States and wishing them luck.

It's commendable that you what to help but I think it's a decision only you can make. I assume you've no health contraindications to be concerned with if you're exposed, correct?

If it's any consolation, effectively everyone participating here will be working to they drop if they're not already retired. At least you'll have lots of company.

This.