PERM - Effect on Nurse Immigration to US

safewaygreenbox · Mar 23, 2005

Thanks for that info, you have made it very clear, lets hope that I and many others who would like to nurse in the US get to ride on that 2nd elevator.

Kay the 2nd :)

NYrnTX · Apr 19, 2005

Shusterman's latest bulletin has a detailed section about the topic that is described in this thread. Following is an extract from it :

While the PERM system is designed to expedite employment-based processing for most occupations, we believe that it will have the opposite effect on the green card processing of RNs and PTs.

Read the full article here http://shusterman.com/siu.html#7

DOL (Department of Labor) in United States (US) is planning to officially start the PERM process on next monday (Mar 28). While it is long a waited 'phenomenal' thing for some Employment Base- Third (EB3) categories, Nurses may not have the same view.
What is PERM :
First of all, PERM is NOT a new visa Category. PERM stands for Program Electronic Review Management System. Its just a process to considerably reduce the processing time for the Labor certification (LC) task in the Employment based Immigration process.
Background :
Employment based Immigration to US is a 3 step process which includes
a) DOL determines that there are NO American nationals qualified for OR willing to work for a particular position and certifies that THE foreign national is required to be present in US to do the job. This process is called Labor Certification (LC)
b) Once DOL Certifies LC, Employer files a petition to USCIS - I 140
c) The applicant files another petition to the USCIS requesting for Permanent Resident status (Green card)
Among these 3 steps, (a) is the most time consuming one and it used to take around 3 years to get LC done. In other words, it used to take 3 years to be ELIGIBLE to apply for GC once someone decides to migrate to US for employment. PERM is meant to reduce that 3 years of processing for LC to just 3 months.
Current Situation:
Since there was huge backlog for LC processing, DOL decided to implement a new program that would expedite and streamline the LC process. This new program is called PERM. It should be noted that, PERM is only meant to reduce the processing time of the LC process. PERM has nothing to do with step (b) and step © of the immigration process. IOW, people who do not need LC or people who have already completed LC have nothing to do with PERM.
As we know, nurses belong to a SPECIAL EB3 category called 'Schedule-A' and it does NOT require LC. Meaning, USCIS already know that there are not enough American nationals available for the nursing (RN) job and henceforth they don't have anything to check and certify. IOW, Nurses do not need a Labor Certification process at all and henceforth PERM can not help nurses.
Effect of PERM on Nurses:
Though nurses do not require LC and do not benefit from PERM, it has added some extra burden to the RN immigration process. As per PERM guidelines, for ALL EB3 cases, certain forms must be submitted to USCIS irrespective of whether the applicant belongs to Schedule A category or not. One of this forms is called PREVAILING WAGE DETERMINATION. Also, a notice (about the new recruitment) must be posted for 10 days.
Before PERM, these extra things were not required (Though not required, some employers used to do that to make their application error proof). It may not be an issue for the actual applicant but may provide burden for Employer and henceforth slow down the immigration process.
The main effect :
RNs were a huge beneficiary of the Schedule A Category since RN could 'flew in to' the second floor (I 140) directly, while 'Others' were forced to take the 3 year long route to reach second floor (climbing stairs). There was no much rush in the second floor and it was a smooth journey. With the introduction of PERM, a new Lift (Elevator) will be built for 'Others' and they can also reach the second floor QUITE FAST (though they cannot fly in). Since there is no Flight/Elevator for ANYONE from second floor to third floor, in another 3 months, there will a BIG CROWD in the second floor, fighting for a ticket (VisaNumber) to reach the third floor. Severe Fight..Longer Queues..
Experts are predicting that PD dates can retrogress up to 7 years if they successfully implement PERM. Those who have ALREADY filed petition (I140) have a PD and PERM may not impact them much ('Others' can only join the queue behind them) . Unfortunately, those who have NOT filed a petition yet may have to stand in a looooooong queue at second floor and fight hard for a Visa number. The queue will be very long and will get longer in a rapid manner once they successfully implement PERM.
PERM could a blessing in disguise:
But, there is a ray of hope and its Tom Lantos Bill. If Lantos bill becomes law, then it will create another direct Lift (Elevator) from Second floor to Third floor ONLY FOR NURSES and nurses will reach their FINAL Destination while 'others' are still at the second floor queue. (As a matter of fact, this makes Lantos Bill more important. To ensure quality health care, Govt. has to find ways to bring international nurses to US in an emergency vehicle without any obstruction from 'others' since the RN shortage in US increases rapidly.)
So the bottom line is, PERM has some negative effects on nurse immigration but it can turn out to be a good thing for nurses.
But, as we all know, there is nothing much we can do here... Be 'in the know' and just wait and watch...
Disclaimer : This post is only meant to share some thoughts on PERM. Please consult an Immigration attorney for legal advice.

NYrnTX · Jun 18, 2005

As feared, it seems like PERM is going to be a burden for Schedule - A I 140 process. Recent Yates memo is posted at Shusterman's website, which in all probability could make things worse for the still pending I-140 cases.

RFEs to the employer can be expected just for the sake of PERM formality which would delay the entire I 140 process. I remember reading that, it may take months for the employer to get a PWD (Prevailing Wage Determination) certificate from some states.

Another obstacle when we overcome one !!!!

DOL (Department of Labor) in United States (US) is planning to officially start the PERM process on next monday (Mar 28). While it is long a waited 'phenomenal' thing for some Employment Base- Third (EB3) categories, Nurses may not have the same view.
What is PERM :
First of all, PERM is NOT a new visa Category. PERM stands for Program Electronic Review Management System. Its just a process to considerably reduce the processing time for the Labor certification (LC) task in the Employment based Immigration process.
Background :
Employment based Immigration to US is a 3 step process which includes
a) DOL determines that there are NO American nationals qualified for OR willing to work for a particular position and certifies that THE foreign national is required to be present in US to do the job. This process is called Labor Certification (LC)
b) Once DOL Certifies LC, Employer files a petition to USCIS - I 140
c) The applicant files another petition to the USCIS requesting for Permanent Resident status (Green card)
Among these 3 steps, (a) is the most time consuming one and it used to take around 3 years to get LC done. In other words, it used to take 3 years to be ELIGIBLE to apply for GC once someone decides to migrate to US for employment. PERM is meant to reduce that 3 years of processing for LC to just 3 months.
Current Situation:
Since there was huge backlog for LC processing, DOL decided to implement a new program that would expedite and streamline the LC process. This new program is called PERM. It should be noted that, PERM is only meant to reduce the processing time of the LC process. PERM has nothing to do with step (b) and step © of the immigration process. IOW, people who do not need LC or people who have already completed LC have nothing to do with PERM.
As we know, nurses belong to a SPECIAL EB3 category called 'Schedule-A' and it does NOT require LC. Meaning, USCIS already know that there are not enough American nationals available for the nursing (RN) job and henceforth they don't have anything to check and certify. IOW, Nurses do not need a Labor Certification process at all and henceforth PERM can not help nurses.
Effect of PERM on Nurses:
Though nurses do not require LC and do not benefit from PERM, it has added some extra burden to the RN immigration process. As per PERM guidelines, for ALL EB3 cases, certain forms must be submitted to USCIS irrespective of whether the applicant belongs to Schedule A category or not. One of this forms is called PREVAILING WAGE DETERMINATION. Also, a notice (about the new recruitment) must be posted for 10 days.
Before PERM, these extra things were not required (Though not required, some employers used to do that to make their application error proof). It may not be an issue for the actual applicant but may provide burden for Employer and henceforth slow down the immigration process.
The main effect :
RNs were a huge beneficiary of the Schedule A Category since RN could 'flew in to' the second floor (I 140) directly, while 'Others' were forced to take the 3 year long route to reach second floor (climbing stairs). There was no much rush in the second floor and it was a smooth journey. With the introduction of PERM, a new Lift (Elevator) will be built for 'Others' and they can also reach the second floor QUITE FAST (though they cannot fly in). Since there is no Flight/Elevator for ANYONE from second floor to third floor, in another 3 months, there will a BIG CROWD in the second floor, fighting for a ticket (VisaNumber) to reach the third floor. Severe Fight..Longer Queues..
Experts are predicting that PD dates can retrogress up to 7 years if they successfully implement PERM. Those who have ALREADY filed petition (I140) have a PD and PERM may not impact them much ('Others' can only join the queue behind them) . Unfortunately, those who have NOT filed a petition yet may have to stand in a looooooong queue at second floor and fight hard for a Visa number. The queue will be very long and will get longer in a rapid manner once they successfully implement PERM.
PERM could a blessing in disguise:
But, there is a ray of hope and its Tom Lantos Bill. If Lantos bill becomes law, then it will create another direct Lift (Elevator) from Second floor to Third floor ONLY FOR NURSES and nurses will reach their FINAL Destination while 'others' are still at the second floor queue. (As a matter of fact, this makes Lantos Bill more important. To ensure quality health care, Govt. has to find ways to bring international nurses to US in an emergency vehicle without any obstruction from 'others' since the RN shortage in US increases rapidly.)
So the bottom line is, PERM has some negative effects on nurse immigration but it can turn out to be a good thing for nurses.
But, as we all know, there is nothing much we can do here... Be 'in the know' and just wait and watch...
Disclaimer : This post is only meant to share some thoughts on PERM. Please consult an Immigration attorney for legal advice.

sarahluo · Jun 18, 2005

thanks for NYrnTX's information. acctually, i am really depressed about hearing this since i know it is more time consuming for nurses who haven't filed the petition. and i am one of them.

by the way, i want to ask you a question. a friend of mine just contracted with a agency(employer) and the lawyor asked her to fill ETA-9089 form and told her that two month has to be wait before the petition can be filed since they have to wait for previaling wage certificate and the job need to be posted(lik you said). do u think it is normal process for schedule A? i think 9089 form is not for RN, do you think so?

NYrnTX · Jun 18, 2005

I hate to say this, but its true. For all the I 140's that are filed on or after Mar 28 2005 (the day PERM got implemented), these ETA-9089 is required. and Also the job posting. This is explained in Page 4 of the Yates Memo at

http://shusterman.com/pdf/yates61505.pdf

Even for those filed before Mar 28 (and I-140 still pending), I anticipate unwantred RFE's for this PWD document, though Yates memo states it is not required for those cases.

From the example of your friend, I assume what we feared before has started happening now. !!!!

thanks for NYrnTX's information. acctually, i am really depressed about hearing this since i know it is more time consuming for nurses who haven't filed the petition. and i am one of them.
by the way, i want to ask you a question. a friend of mine just contracted with a agency(employer) and the lawyor asked her to fill ETA-9089 form and told her that two month has to be wait before the petition can be filed since they have to wait for previaling wage certificate and the job need to be posted(lik you said). do u think it is normal process for schedule A? i think 9089 form is not for RN, do you think so?

NYrnTX · Sep 7, 2005

once again, it is clarified, as feared before, that perm is a major hurdle in the immigration journey for rns.

till now, we were aware that the delay perm could make for rns was only on pwd from swa and 10 day posting rule. but it seems, thats just the beginning. as mentioned by shusterman in the following extract below in gray color (originally at, http://shusterman.com/siu.html#10) it seems the employer is prohibited to file i 140 for 30 days after getting pwd. meaning another 30 days will go wasted for all future applicants.

as mentioned before, perm could be a phenominal thing for all non-schedulea (who require lc), but its definitely gonna harm rns.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

[color=gray] "even before the bill was signed into law, the labor department's (dol's) perm regulations went into effect. while, in the past, it was acceptable to submit wage surveys for rns issued by dol's bureau of labor statistics' occupational employment statistics, the perm regulations mandate that before submitting an immigration visa petition on behalf of an rn, an employer must obtain a prevailing wage determination from the state workforce agency (swa) in the state of intended employment. this is true even where the prevailing wage is determined by a collective bargaining agreement. in states like california, where the process of obtaining the prevailing wage from the swa can take two months or more, this new requirement imposes a significant delay on employers seeking to immigrate foreign-born nurses. once the prevailing wage is obtained from the swa, and a notice is posted for ten business days, the employer is prohibited from submitting an i-140 visa petition for a minimum of 30 days. perm may expedite the usual labor certification process, but for schedule a occupations, it imposes significant, and in our view, unnecessary delays. this is particularly troublesome given that rns and pts are both classified by the dol as "shortage occupations".

dhel28 · Sep 8, 2005

Is PERM the real cause why all of a sudden USCIS is so slow in approving petition?

Nurses were able to hurdle the retrogression, now comes PERM. Out of the frying pan into the fire :angryfire

nimishavarghese · Sep 8, 2005

Dhel...

I know its lil stupid question but still....

Will the perm affect by any chance people who are in the last stage... I mean people like me waiting for Consulate interview???

dhel28 · Sep 8, 2005

Dhel...
I know its lil stupid question but still....
Will the perm affect by any chance people who are in the last stage... I mean people like me waiting for Consulate interview???

No, Nimisha, PERM only affects those who has yet to submit petition application. Do not worry!

hael171972 · Sep 9, 2005

thanks for posting this info..:)

i think this is already afecting nurses..my i-140 has no approval yet...its been more than 9 months since it was filed at ca service center..and i'm afraid it would take more months before approval.. :crying2:

NYrnTX · Sep 15, 2005

we should consider ourself fortunate to have a special visa category available for nurses (schedulea / ex). if not, meaning, if we were the previous eb3 general category, we would have to wait 5-7 years for a visa number.

priority date cut-off is established based on the demand vs supply estimate. the general eb3 category is retrogressed to jan 98 / mar 01 / may 00 for people from india/phili/china. the main reason for this huge backlog is perm. read the following extract from murthy.com (originally at http://murthy.com/nflash/nf_091305.html) in gray color for more info. as experts predicted (and mentioned here) before, perm could retrogress the visa number availability for 7 years. thats what happened now.

fortunately, nurses are in schedule a category and it is 'current'. since uscis has clearly defined schedulea, others cannot intrude in to this category and eat up our visa numbers. so, as uscis has mentioned and experts attorneys like shusterman predicted, the 50k visa number for nurses should be enough for the foreseeable future.

[color=gray]the cutoff dates are based upon estimates of demand for the limited supply of visa numbers. this demand, in turn, is fueled by case filings and processing times at the uscis and the department of labor. the approvals from the department of labor have started to increase, because they are coming from two sources. that is, perm labor certifications are being approved and pre-perm cases in the backlog centers are also being approved. additionally, since eb3 numbers have been unavailable for three months, many of those cases pending with uscis now have approved i-140s and would be eligible for i-485 approval / filing if the visa numbers were available. thus, the dos established cutoff dates so far back. we at the law office of sheela murthy hope and believe that by early 2006 there should be some movement in the dates depending on the usage or demand for visa numbers.

dol (department of labor) in united states (us) is planning to officially start the perm process on next monday (mar 28). while it is long a waited 'phenomenal' thing for some employment base- third (eb3) categories, nurses may not have the same view.
what is perm :
first of all, perm is not a new visa category. perm stands for program electronic review management system. its just a process to considerably reduce the processing time for the labor certification (lc) task in the employment based immigration process.
background :
employment based immigration to us is a 3 step process which includes
a) dol determines that there are no american nationals qualified for or willing to work for a particular position and certifies that the foreign national is required to be present in us to do the job. this process is called labor certification (lc)
b) once dol certifies lc, employer files a petition to uscis - i 140
c) the applicant files another petition to the uscis requesting for permanent resident status (green card)
among these 3 steps, (a) is the most time consuming one and it used to take around 3 years to get lc done. in other words, it used to take 3 years to be eligible to apply for gc once someone decides to migrate to us for employment. perm is meant to reduce that 3 years of processing for lc to just 3 months.
current situation:
since there was huge backlog for lc processing, dol decided to implement a new program that would expedite and streamline the lc process. this new program is called perm. it should be noted that, perm is only meant to reduce the processing time of the lc process. perm has nothing to do with step (b) and step © of the immigration process. iow, people who do not need lc or people who have already completed lc have nothing to do with perm.
as we know, nurses belong to a special eb3 category called 'schedule-a' and it does not require lc. meaning, uscis already know that there are not enough american nationals available for the nursing (rn) job and henceforth they don't have anything to check and certify. iow, nurses do not need a labor certification process at all and henceforth perm can not help nurses.
effect of perm on nurses:
though nurses do not require lc and do not benefit from perm, it has added some extra burden to the rn immigration process. as per perm guidelines, for all eb3 cases, certain forms must be submitted to uscis irrespective of whether the applicant belongs to schedule a category or not. one of this forms is called prevailing wage determination. also, a notice (about the new recruitment) must be posted for 10 days.
before perm, these extra things were not required (though not required, some employers used to do that to make their application error proof). it may not be an issue for the actual applicant but may provide burden for employer and henceforth slow down the immigration process.
the main effect :
rns were a huge beneficiary of the schedule a category since rn could 'flew in to' the second floor (i 140) directly, while 'others' were forced to take the 3 year long route to reach second floor (climbing stairs). there was no much rush in the second floor and it was a smooth journey. with the introduction of perm, a new lift (elevator) will be built for 'others' and they can also reach the second floor quite fast (though they cannot fly in). since there is no flight/elevator for anyone from second floor to third floor, in another 3 months, there will a big crowd in the second floor, fighting for a ticket (visanumber) to reach the third floor. severe fight..longer queues..
experts are predicting that pd dates can retrogress up to 7 years if they successfully implement perm. those who have already filed petition (i140) have a pd and perm may not impact them much ('others' can only join the queue behind them) . unfortunately, those who have not filed a petition yet may have to stand in a looooooong queue at second floor and fight hard for a visa number. the queue will be very long and will get longer in a rapid manner once they successfully implement perm.
perm could a blessing in disguise:
but, there is a ray of hope and its tom lantos bill. if lantos bill becomes law, then it will create another direct lift (elevator) from second floor to third floor only for nurses and nurses will reach their final destination while 'others' are still at the second floor queue. (as a matter of fact, this makes lantos bill more important. to ensure quality health care, govt. has to find ways to bring international nurses to us in an emergency vehicle without any obstruction from 'others' since the rn shortage in us increases rapidly.)
so the bottom line is, perm has some negative effects on nurse immigration but it can turn out to be a good thing for nurses.
but, as we all know, there is nothing much we can do here... be 'in the know' and just wait and watch...
disclaimer : this post is only meant to share some thoughts on perm. please consult an immigration attorney for legal advice.