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Pagan in a Catholic Hospital...

Spirituality   (8,506 Views | 73 Replies)
by Kaelsdream Kaelsdream (New) New

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Vetpharmtech said:

"I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately, many Christians love to show non-Christians their deity's love. I find this assumption insulting because it presumes that everyone on this planet believes in Yahweh but gets their idea about him wrong."

and:

"I don't want to paint all Christians with a broad brush, but it is in there book that commands them to convert other people...they use their bible to justify their obnoxious proselytization."

In the same breath that you say you don't want to generalize, you generalize. You find an assumption insulting, then you assume to presume what "many" Christians believe, implying that if someone isn't Christian, they're free to assume and presume anything they choose.

You're doing the very thing that you're criticizing.

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vetpharmtech has 1 years experience.

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Vetpharmtech said:

"I couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately, many Christians love to show non-Christians their deity's love. I find this assumption insulting because it presumes that everyone on this planet believes in Yahweh but gets their idea about him wrong."

and:

"I don't want to paint all Christians with a broad brush, but it is in there book that commands them to convert other people...they use their bible to justify their obnoxious proselytization."

In the same breath that you say you don't want to generalize, you generalize. You find an assumption insulting, then you assume to presume what "many" Christians believe, implying that if someone isn't Christian, they're free to assume and presume anything they choose.

You're doing the very thing that you're criticizing.

Fine. I may be inconsistent. I am like that for a reason. The pagan nurse asked a legitimate question. Then you turned the question back at her/him as if they both are on the same level.

It is easy for you to do that because you are a Christian. I am not. Neither is OP, who is concerned about being marginalized because of her non Christian belief. You did not try to understand where I and OP came from. Instead, you said that you could show me the same number of obnoxious pagans as obnoxious "untrue" Christians.

I read the Bible. I can tell the Christian behavior that invokes OP's concern does not come from thin air. It has its root in your scriptures.

Well, what do I know? I am talking to a Christian who enjoys Christian privileges in a country where Christians hold political power that compromises non Christian's liberty. I guess those people are not practicing the gospel properly, are they? Then why do you not educate your brothers and sisters in Christ instead of being flippant about OP's concern?

Sorry for wasting your energy reading my first post. I should have checked who you are before replying to your post. Had I known you are a Christian, I would not bother to respond. From my observation, conversations with Christians usually go nowhere. They never try to step in someone else's shoes to understand their fear or anger. Instead, they either find an excuse or become defensive against genuine concern. It is truly a waste of time.

I apologize for making you read my response.

Edited by vetpharmtech

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Fine. I may be inconsistent. I am like that for a reason. The pagan nurse asked a legitimate question. Then you turned the question back at her/him as if they both are on the same level.

It is easy for you to do that because you are a Christian. I am not. Neither is OP, who is concerned about being marginalized because of her non Christian belief. You did not try to understand where I and OP came from. Instead, you said that you could show me the same number of obnoxious pagans as obnoxious "untrue" Christians.

I read the Bible. I can tell the Christian behavior that invokes OP's concern does not come from thin air. It has its root in your scriptures.

Well, what do I know? I am talking to a Christian who enjoys Christian privileges in a country where Christians hold political power that compromises non Christian's liberty. I guess those people are not practicing the gospel properly, are they? Then why do you not educate your brothers and sisters in Christ instead of being flippant about OP's concern?

Sorry for wasting your energy reading my first post. I should have checked who you are before replying to your post. Had I known you are a Christian, I would not bother to respond. From my observation, conversations with Christians usually go nowhere. They never try to step in someone else's shoes to understand their fear or anger. Instead, they either find an excuse or become defensive against genuine concern. It is truly a waste of time.

I apologize for making you read my response.

Whoa....time out...You're correct in that I'm a Christian, and to my discredit, I responded on an intellectual level to a conversation that is, at it turns out, a spiritual one. That is my bad and I apologize. I also have a very science/reason basis for coming at questions and switching gears isn't easy for me. Clearly you see the problem with that. So...sorry.

I'm going to guess that you've had very negative experiences with folks that self identify as Christians and it that may be more of a function of their shortcomings in their development as human beings than it does their being Christian. I'm standing my ground on this. For you to have the reaction that you do about Christians, whomever it was that left you feeling this way was not behaving in a way that most Christians would call "good", Christian or not Christian.

I'm a Catholic, actually, and we approach the bible on several different dimensions. We don't look at culture from 1800 years ago and it's interaction with God as a line by line instruction for living in the 21st century. We eat pork and we wear mixed fiber clothing all the time. I am interested in where you find instruction toward hostility in the New Testament, though. There are places where Christians are instructed to draw a line in behavior and belief, but if someone is using the New Testament as an excuse to be a tool, they're taking great liberties with conventional Christian thinking.

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Ruas61 has 35 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in MDS/ UR.

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never mind

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vetpharmtech has 1 years experience.

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Whoa....time out...You're correct in that I'm a Christian, and to my discredit, I responded on an intellectual level to a conversation that is, at it turns out, a spiritual one. That is my bad and I apologize. I also have a very science/reason basis for coming at questions and switching gears isn't easy for me. Clearly you see the problem with that. So...sorry.

No need to apologize. My first response was to simply answer your question. I was not careful with my wording, so it may seem like I addressed a spiritual issue.

I'm going to guess that you've had very negative experiences with folks that self identify as Christians and it that may be more of a function of their shortcomings in their development as human beings than it does their being Christian. I'm standing my ground on this. For you to have the reaction that you do about Christians, whomever it was that left you feeling this way was not behaving in a way that most Christians would call "good", Christian or not Christian.

You are free to stand your ground. I am not going to change my first response. It seems like you want to convince me that those annoying people are not actual Christians or Christians in name only. Sorry, I don't belong to your faith. It is not my business to define who is a real Christian. I only see kind Christian, compassionate Christian, annoying Christian, hypocritical Christian. I don't see true Christian or fake Christian. I don't have the standard to judge them. I take people at face value as they present themselves.

I don't have exactly negative experience dealing with Christians. It's more annoying than negative. One example I can give you happened where I am working. There is a veterinary surgeon from Indiana who is a Catholic. I never bring up anything religious with him. One day, during our conversation, he mentioned about going to church, and then he asked me if I wanted to go to church with him. I was surprised with the question especially when he never asked me about my religious belief. I told him that I did not go to a Christian church and had no interest in Christianity or speaking about religion. Somehow the vet had to press me to give him a reason. I was upfront with him with this answer, "I read the Bible and become convinced that there is no way I can worship a deity like Yahweh. I can give you a few reasons, but they may bother you since I don't have anything nice to say about your god. I want you to able to practice your religion without disturbing your conscience. Hence, I had better not give you a full answer. Let us not dig deeper into your faith for your own peace." Since then, no more Catholic apologetic.

I don't like to be rude to Christians. Nevertheless, sometimes I have to be harsh when I feel cornered.

Keep in mind that this is California. Imagine what would happen if I live in the Midwest.

I don't know where OP is living, but her concern is legitimate. Christians don't want to expose their faith all the time for no reason. As a Catholic, you know what Francis of Assisi said about preaching.

I'm a Catholic, actually, and we approach the bible on several different dimensions. We don't look at culture from 1800 years ago and it's interaction with God as a line by line instruction for living in the 21st century. We eat pork and we wear mixed fiber clothing all the time. I am interested in where you find instruction toward hostility in the New Testament, though. There are places where Christians are instructed to draw a line in behavior and belief, but if someone is using the New Testament as an excuse to be a tool, they're taking great liberties with conventional Christian thinking.

Again, you put me in a position that I have to take your words over other Christians'. Perhaps you are correct. Nonetheless, as an outsider, unfortunately I cannot tell them "you don't behave like a true Christian". I bet they will say "you don't have the holy spirit to judge my Christian identity." What am I supposed to do then?

Speaking of the Bible, Luke 10:8-12 and Mark 16:15-18 are such examples about threat for simply disbelieving in Christian claims.

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Speaking of the Bible, Luke 10:8-12 and Mark 16:15-18 are such examples about threat for simply disbelieving in Christian claims.

I never really read those from the perspective of someone that has no interest, once told, in the message in the Gospels. I see the point, but I would take those passages as internal "memos" to Christians. If you try and they refuse, too bad for them. Burning bridges with attitude pretty much guarantees that any chance for success later is gone, and Jesus' kind and winsome interaction with those he wished to convert was anything but obnoxious and he is supposed to be the model. He was way harder on his own followers than he was on hurting people that were just searching.

Besides, I'm going to guess that I don't believe in the same deity that you don't believe in.

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vetpharmtech has 1 years experience.

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I never really read those from the perspective of someone that has no interest, once told, in the message in the Gospels. I see the point, but I would take those passages as internal "memos" to Christians. If you try and they refuse, too bad for them. Burning bridges with attitude pretty much guarantees that any chance for success later is gone, and Jesus' kind and winsome interaction with those he wished to convert was anything but obnoxious and he is supposed to be the model. He was way harder on his own followers than he was on hurting people that were just searching.

Besides, I'm going to guess that I don't believe in the same deity that you don't believe in.

I am glad that you are a positive Christian. I trust that if I happen to be your colleague I will not have to deal with you the way I dealt with my vet.

That experience was weird to me. Catholic Christians are usually less proselytizing than Protestants.

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NurseCard has 13 years experience as a ADN and specializes in Med/Surge, Psych, LTC, Home Health.

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I am glad that you are a positive Christian. I trust that if I happen to be your colleague I will not have to deal with you the way I dealt with my vet.

That experience was weird to me. Catholic Christians are usually less proselytizing than Protestants.

Where I go to church, we are taught that if we do not try to convert non believers,

than we are failing them. I go to a non denominational Christian church. So,

protestant. :)

Our preacher has, on two different occasions, shown us an interesting video.

It's a video of magician Penn Jillette, who is an atheist, speaking about a man

whom he met once after a show. The man asked Jillette, did he know Jesus

Christ, was he a Christian, did he read the bible, etc.. Jillette informed the

man that no, he was not a Christian, he did not believe in God. The man

then left him a copy of the Bible, and went off on his way.

Penn ended the video by saying, "I don't believe in God... I know there

is no God... but, if you are someone who is convinced that, for someone

to know God, is going to save their life.. why would you not tell them

about God, about Jesus? Why would you not do that?"

And that's what we are taught... to minister to others. To teach them

the good news of Jesus, and of resurrection.

Now... myself, I'm very uncomfortable doing this. :( It makes

me feel like a failure as a true Christian. My brother is an atheist.

My coworker is an atheist. I have many family members who

are agnostics, pagans, what have you... I can't bring myself

to tell them, you MUST know God... I have invited my brother

to my church on several occasions.

Just giving you an idea as to why people proselytize.

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vetpharmtech has 1 years experience.

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Where I go to church, we are taught that if we do not try to convert non believers,

than we are failing them. I go to a non denominational Christian church. So,

protestant. :)

Our preacher has, on two different occasions, shown us an interesting video.

It's a video of magician Penn Jillette, who is an atheist, speaking about a man

whom he met once after a show. The man asked Jillette, did he know Jesus

Christ, was he a Christian, did he read the bible, etc.. Jillette informed the

man that no, he was not a Christian, he did not believe in God. The man

then left him a copy of the Bible, and went off on his way.

Penn ended the video by saying, "I don't believe in God... I know there

is no God... but, if you are someone who is convinced that, for someone

to know God, is going to save their life.. why would you not tell them

about God, about Jesus? Why would you not do that?"

And that's what we are taught... to minister to others. To teach them

the good news of Jesus, and of resurrection.

Now... myself, I'm very uncomfortable doing this. :( It makes

me feel like a failure as a true Christian. My brother is an atheist.

My coworker is an atheist. I have many family members who

are agnostics, pagans, what have you... I can't bring myself

to tell them, you MUST know God... I have invited my brother

to my church on several occasions.

Just giving you an idea as to why people proselytize.

Thanks goodness I am not a Christian and I am not your family member. The way you respond is the reason I think OP's concern is valid and should be addressed. Now you project your sentiment on me. I guess you didn't bother to read my earlier response. Then don't blame me to the same to you. I am not a Christian, so I will not play your rule, Mrs Christian.

To OP: as I predicted, a Catholic hospital is properly not too bad for your pagan spirituality. offlabel proved that in her posts.

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Thanks goodness I am not a Christian and I am not your family member. The way you respond is the reason I think OP's concern is valid and should be addressed. Now you project your sentiment on me. I guess you didn't bother to read my earlier response. Then don't blame me to the same to you. I am not a Christian, so I will not play your rule, Mrs Christian.

To OP: as I predicted, a Catholic hospital is properly not too bad for your pagan spirituality. offlabel proved that in her posts.

With all due respect, I don't think NurseCard was trying to convince you of anything other than to give some insight into why some Christians do what they do. You come across a little toxic here in responding to a good faith effort to give a little clarity.

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1 Follower; 1,319 Posts; 12,348 Profile Views

Where I go to church, we are taught that if we do not try to convert non believers,

than we are failing them. I go to a non denominational Christian church. So,

protestant. :)

Our preacher has, on two different occasions, shown us an interesting video.

It's a video of magician Penn Jillette, who is an atheist, speaking about a man

whom he met once after a show. The man asked Jillette, did he know Jesus

Christ, was he a Christian, did he read the bible, etc.. Jillette informed the

man that no, he was not a Christian, he did not believe in God. The man

then left him a copy of the Bible, and went off on his way.

Penn ended the video by saying, "I don't believe in God... I know there

is no God... but, if you are someone who is convinced that, for someone

to know God, is going to save their life.. why would you not tell them

about God, about Jesus? Why would you not do that?"

And that's what we are taught... to minister to others. To teach them

the good news of Jesus, and of resurrection.

Now... myself, I'm very uncomfortable doing this. :( It makes

me feel like a failure as a true Christian. My brother is an atheist.

My coworker is an atheist. I have many family members who

are agnostics, pagans, what have you... I can't bring myself

to tell them, you MUST know God... I have invited my brother

to my church on several occasions.

Just giving you an idea as to why people proselytize.

I think knowing your audience and adjusting your tack accordingly would go a long way in making you more comfortable talking about faith to non-believers. Atheists tend to base their non belief in reason and science, so engage them on that level. There are plenty of very powerful arguments for the existence of God that use philosophy and science as a basis. If you go straight to the Bible and Jesus Christ, you've lost already.

A classical approach would be this:

Five Ways (Aquinas) - Wikipedia

A modern approach would be this:

Bernard Lonergan's Proof for God

There are more, but these are a start. Note that there is no mention at all of Christianity or the Bible. That's where you'd start with a guy like Penn Jillette.

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vetpharmtech has 1 years experience.

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With all due respect, I don't think NurseCard was trying to convince you of anything other than to give some insight into why some Christians do what they do. You come across a little toxic here in responding to a good faith effort to give a little clarity.

It's not that I don't want to believe you. However, considering the privileges American Christians have been receiving, I am skeptical that you would say the same to me if this NurseCard is a Sikh, a Wiccan, a Unitarian Universalist, a polytheist,...

I become sick of Christians who think that they are doing people of other faiths a good service by telling them that "they are lost" and "they need Jesus". These are metaphysical ideas, not facts that can be verified by everyone on this planet. You may not see it that way since you are one of them. My religious background has no Abrahamic concept. Talking me into it is another way of imposing your faith on me. Why doesn't NurseCard go to South America and tell Amazon people about Jesus? They seem to live pretty good life without Christianity.

To OP: I apologize. I have no idea that my response would cause this mess. You don't deserve this. As a pagan, you deal enough with Christians demonizing your deities. On top of that, as a nurse, you must have had difficulties in your career as well. You should not have put up with this nonsense from Christians in your post. Maybe you should contact a moderator of this forum. I hope he/she can create a safe space for religious minority so that non-Christian nurses can receive accurate and honest answers instead of this crime shifting and victim blaming nonsense.

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