Opinions on Second-Entry Programs in Ontario

Fiona59 · Jun 20, 2008

I work on a unit that host nursing students frequently. Honestly, the only thing going for 2 degree nursing students is their age. Their knowledge at times is "iffy", they don't seem to be as skilled for hands on work.

We usually are just told we are getting a class coming in and figure it out ourselves, usually within the first couple of hours who is second degrees.

linzz · Jun 21, 2008

Hey Fiona59, what sorts of deficits in knowledge are you noticing? I have not heard much about these programs as there aren't any near where I live. If they are two years long, that seems like not much time to learn all that they need to know. Not sure though.

Fiona59 · Jun 21, 2008

They seem to "skim" the texts and focus on really weird things. They have only two clinical experiences and have serious problems with time/patient management. It's like they expect the patients to behave like case studies for them and we all know that on a good day a patient is civil never mind willing to discuss their religious belief system, socio-economic situation, etc. Fewer than 1 in 10 are able to handle a five patient assignment by the end of their rotations. Most can manage three easy patients but through in complex dressings, a couple of trips to DI, unexpected emesis and they just can't do it. The students expect the NA to do most of the am/hs care, beds, etc. On my unit, every nurse does her own, the NA is there to assist us with the total cares and to do beds if she has time, and to shower those who look a bit wobbly.

The last group we had appeared very sheltered and lacked common sense. Almost like they had spent too long in the ivory towers of academia.

The hands on skills are weak. Most have never inserted a catheter as students, have really strange ideas on wound care, no expense spared (I mean who in their right mind fills a dressing tray from ns flush syringes?)

We are finding that many of the instructors that come on site with any students these days need refreshers. Some are really good and come by the unit to see what we do, others try to wing it. They don't have an understanding of the LPNs role in acute care in my hospital and have told their students not to ask us for help. Problem here is we have had to explain procedures and uses of different drain types, dressing materials and how to use wound vacs to the instructors. Then they discover that a LPN has been teaching them (the instructor) how to teach their students.

If I hear one more RN tell me that nursing doesn't need a degree and we should go back to hospital and community college based education I'm going to eat my graduation cap.

Nurse training needs an overhaul and provincial guidelines for starters. We have students from across Canada working in our region this summer and the disparity of their educations is scary. Some really know their stuff and others from schools in the same region are babes in the woods.

linzz · Jun 21, 2008

Fiona59, thank you for your response. That is too bad that some of these programs are not preparing students for the real world of nursing. I must agree that nursing education needs a real overhaul. I have a previous degree and that did help greatly with writing papers but it was of no help at all in clinicals and in working in nursing and having to manage the many demands of patients and emergent situations.

loriangel14, RN · Jun 21, 2008

My workplace hosted a BSCN student in the spring and it was similiar to what you described Fiona. This girl had no hands on skills at all and had no interst in learning either. We do total care and she was dismayed to discover she was expected to wash and dress her pts and toilet them herself.Two pts kept her tied up all morning and they were uncomplicated ones at that. This was in February and she was supposed to graduate in April. She had to ask how to empty a Foley catheter bag for heavens sake.

Jaguar Boy · Jun 24, 2008

It's interesting to read about first hand, real world experiences of nurses with students in 2nd entry programs. I've been accepted to a Second Entry program in Ontario myself, I'll start in January at Humber College in Toronto. Their 2nd entry program is 4 months longer than the university, 2 year 2nd entry programs and I hope that this will give me enough time to develop my skills. My impression of the 2nd entry programs is that they are very, very condensed and intense...and spots are scarce...that's why I decided to apply only to Humber College...I didn't bother with York and Toronto.

I know Toronto's program is relatively established...I don't know what their clinical portion is like. When I visited York, I got the impression that their second entry program is newer and that they may have had some difficulty securing clinical spots for their students. The presenter said something about "competing with other nursing schools"...just kind of flew up a flag for me.

OP...hope this is helpful. Good luck to you.

Fiona59 · Jun 24, 2008

Spots for clinicals are getting harder to find. Factor in how many classes require each semester (PN, BScN, 2nd Degree) with how many medical and surgical units are in your area. Spice it up with they usually need to come in around the same time. Just to screw up the works, there are also units like mine who want a break from students and you are finding fewer and fewer spots.

The last batch of students we had exhausted us. The instructor was in general concensus, useless, wandered around looking confused and was constantly pulling staff aside to ask how to do basic skills. Add in that two nurses already were preceptoring one student each and having to do their own assessment of their student. Out of that class of 10, there is was one student that the floor staff felt was where she should be knowledge and skill wise. Even the patients were commenting on some of those students would never be able to hold a job.

Floor nurses are not paid to help train students. The nurses doing one on one preceptorships make less than a couple of dollars an hour extra for the experience. So yes, we are getting tired of instructors coming onto the floor with poor skills, no time management, and no real clue of what our unit is about. We just try and pass on our knowledge and skills but the students need to be supervised by the instructor for the first time that they do a new skill. So we will drag a student along to watch a wound vac change, or a large dressing change on patients they are not assigned to because they otherwise are stood waiting for the instructor to come to them.

There has to be a better way to educate nurses. At this point I'm with the nurses who trained in the hospital. Hands on care from the start and work your way through it.

Soon2BPaeds · Jun 26, 2008

I am currently researching 2-year Accelerated/Second-Entry/Advanced Standing BScN programs in Ontario.
More specifically, I'm looking at:
University of Toronto
York University
University of Ottawa
Queen's University
University of Western Ontario
I have figured out the different university level pre-requisites and deadlines, (although U of Ottawa is incredibly vague even after I emailed their admissions people) and I have a Bachelor's degree in Arts and Sciences so I do have the necessary science background.
I'm hoping to get some personal opinions and feedback from people that are familiar with these different programs. Which ones are the best? Positive experiences, negative experiences? Also, as a side question, are Second-Entry graduates as respected as 4-year BScN graduates?
Any information is greatly appreciated!

I am a graduate of Western's CTF program and I really enjoyed it. We had the exact same (if not more) clinical hours than the 4 yr program and because of the shortened time frame things are more fresh as you jump from rotation to rotation. I have never found that I am less respected as a second-entry graduate and have often found the opposite. That being said you will quickly learn that there are a number of nurses that like to criticize your education and the way you were trained but no matter where you decide to go you will get a great education. If you have some specific questions about western's program let me know!

Nicole12 · Oct 9, 2011

Reading these comments, I think what most of these people are saying is a load of crap. I did one semester of the second entry nursing program at Ottawa u before I decided that nursing was not for me (which had nothing to do with the quality of the program). I know for a fact that the second entry students at ottawa u have the exact same quality of education as the rest of the nursing students. The prerequisite courses you need to get into the program cover all the relevant aspects of the first year of the regular nursing program and about half of the second year. The courses that you are exempt from are bird courses. Then you do a summer semester being brought up to the level of the 2nd year nursing students (including a clinical experience). At this point, a second entry student has the same science and clinical background as a 2nd year nursing student and they join the regular 3rd year class and do the exact same classes that they do. In fact, the second entry students are older and more serious about nursing so they have higher averages than the regular nursing class.

Fiona59 · Oct 10, 2011

Reading these comments, I think what most of these people are saying is a load of crap. I did one semester of the second entry nursing program at Ottawa u before I decided that nursing was not for me (which had nothing to do with the quality of the program). I know for a fact that the second entry students at ottawa u have the exact same quality of education as the rest of the nursing students. The prerequisite courses you need to get into the program cover all the relevant aspects of the first year of the regular nursing program and about half of the second year. The courses that you are exempt from are bird courses. Then you do a summer semester being brought up to the level of the 2nd year nursing students (including a clinical experience). At this point, a second entry student has the same science and clinical background as a 2nd year nursing student and they join the regular 3rd year class and do the exact same classes that they do. In fact, the second entry students are older and more serious about nursing so they have higher averages than the regular nursing class.

Not all programmes are the same. I notice you decided Nursing was not for you. Well done on making that decision and getting out while you could.

But believe me there is a huge difference in 2nd degree and four year prepared nurses. I work with RNs who were trained by the hospital, two year College programme, four year degree, and two year after degree. I also work with LPNs educated under the old Certificate and new Diploma.

The widest difference in nurses IS between the RNs. The 2 year students produced by our local university are very different from the nurses who went for the full degree. Work ethic, relating to patients, relating to co-workers. Huge difference.

Don't tell us what we do and do not experience working on the floors of busy hospitals and LTCs. The reality is you get nurses who are there because they love the profession, those that came to nursing late in life after other careers, those who took nursing because they found that their previous education wasn't marketable. It's usually the latter that performs poorly on the floor.

joanna73, BSN, RN · Oct 10, 2011

There is a difference between many 2nd entry students and 4 year degree. Yes, they may be mature, but they have 2 years less clinical NURSING experiences. When I was in my 4th year, there were 2nd degree students also. While I had 4 to 5 patients, they took 2. The nurses would complain about many of these students because they lacked time management skills, and basic nursing skills. This was our final placement.

I had to explain to one of them how to do a bed bath during our last semester. Now, I'm sure there are great 2nd degree students out there. But the fact remains, you've crammed everything into 2 years, so you're at a disadvantage. I have another degree also, but it really does me no good for nursing practice.