Nursing is pathetic...

Mijourney · Sep 23, 2000

Originally posted by PINKYE1:
Before you guys get all excited and join the exodus to CA...NurseDude, I think I love you. I agree, nursing is pathetic. I work in corrections, Make approx 65K and have great retirement benefits, etc. My take on this is 1)how professional are we? Some of the nurses I work with are lazy, crazy or just plain scary. Errors, non-advocacy and apathy--no consideration for their peers, call-offs for stuff like "my car is sick" and "I'm going to Vegas tonite". Need I say more? 2)Why are we so satisfied at the lowest level? ADN, Diploma military medic to LVN, c'mon people get a degree BE A PROFESSIONAL. I wouldn't allow a school teacher with an AA to teach my kids, how can you educate your patients if you're uneducated? (THIS WILL MAKE A LOT OF PEOPLE ANGRY I'M SURE, BUT THEY'LL GET OVER IT)The profession should require a BSN as a minimun. 3) Generally your pay is reflective of the region you live in, your education, experience and facility type as well as your position. Join a union and get involved to get better pay and working conditions. Fight for your rights. And, BAND TOGETHER. We nurses DO eat our young. We are so competetive, we don't have time to guide the new grads or just hired and ignore or malign or current co-workers. Sure there are bad seeds, but aren't there in every job. I went into nursing because I cared, wanted a steady profession and had bills to pay. Yes, we are professionals and should be compensated accordingly. Caring is not enough, I can't pay my car note with compassion. I do my job, very well I might add and would like to go home at night without having to stay another shift because somebody called off and we're already short. I understand why the attrition rate is so high,who wants to work for peanuts besides monkeys? Take off the rose-colored glasses and get off the path to OZ people. Nursing is a PROFESSION, a chosen one and nurses should be professional, treated as such and paid as such. Be martyrs on your own, Joan of Arc was burned for what?? I love being a nurse, luckily I get paid decently, but like every job--it has its downsides, but that's another topic. NURSEDUDE, I APPLAUD YOU AND SUPPORT YOU. Incidently people, I have a BSN as well as a BS in Biology and BA in Psychology and am 5 classes short of an MPH in Health Promotion and Education and am looking into a JD program to assist in the fight to get nurses paid what they're worth and decrease the malpractice against us. NurseDude, you can e-mail me at [email protected]. Keep the Faith!!!

Wow! PinkyE1. I have been very impressed with your posts so far. Your above post seem to indicate that you are a consummate professional. Perhaps I have placed myself, wrongly or rightly, in the position of being emotional and too caring about how nursing issues are approached, I guess I have not been making my points in the most clear, concise way. I don't think nursing itself is pathetic. In my opinion, the concept of nursing was a good idea. I entered it as a calling. I think that situations and people in and surrounding the nursing profession are pathetic. Like you, I have armed myself with credentials, have a solid work record behind me, and have been able to navigate nursing practice to my satisfaction or tolerance so far. Being a late bloomer, I feel confident that I will be able to engage in entrepreneurship activities of some type in the future with my skill and knowledge set. I forsee being able to continue to be able to help someone enhance the quality of their life even if I'm working for myself.

PINKYE1 · Sep 25, 2000

Mijourney,

Thanks for the backup. I recently heard of this site from one of my buds and instantly got hooked. You're correct, I worded it wrong, some of the people and situations in nursing makes it pathetic, not the profession itself. Let me know what you guys are up to with your enterprises, if I can assist in any way, I'm willing. Keep in touch. Thanks.

Pinkye1

nursedude · Sep 26, 2000

Pinkeye,

First off "I love you too - XOXOX"

I appreciate your perspective on this topic as well as your support for my opinions.

I guess I need to break out a dictionary and study the meaning of the word "professional".

In your post you mention that it's not really "nursing" that is pathetic, rather it is some of the people in the profession that have enabled it to become what it is. You mentioned the folks who call off because their car is sick, or the lack of nurses with advanced degrees as well as those who see the nursing profession as a "non-profession" ie: something you should like to do as opposed to a profession that you should get paid for.

Maybe it's just me but I can't really think of any other profession where there are so many people in it who feel that their profession is something that they should like doing more than something they should get paid for...Maybe it's because I am a guy? Maybe it has to do with issues stated above, specifically sexism?

The point I am trying to raise now is that in any profession there are call-offs, people who are lazy and people who may be under-educated. Also there are varying degrees of how much the people in that profession like what they do. I am sure too, that most folks in any given profession feel underpaid. However, of all the professions I can think of, none other than nursing really comes to mind where a large portion of the people in that given profession feel that it should be something you "like to do" more than something you "do to get paid". So, bluntly put "is this a woman thing"? What is up with this misconception? Where did it come from and WHY DOES IT STILL EXIST IN THIS PROFESSION? Why do SO MANY nurses subscribe to it?

Again, as mentioned in previous posts in this thread, nursing has and is primarily a womans profession. There has also been use of words like "martyr" and "passive agressive". Are those words merely symptoms or character defects of the profession as a whole? Maybe it's the type of person who can fill the shoes of the title of "nurse"? Maybe the passive aggressive thing is really better described with the term "codependant"?

I would love to discuss this further with anyone who cares to but please be aware that I do not believe that "nursing is something you should like to do, not something to pay the bills"...

Or am I whipping a dead horse?

PINKYE1 · Sep 27, 2000

Sorry guys, I'm E-mailing Nursedude his answer back, so you'll have to check with him to see if he'll enlighten you

Doey, BSN, RN · Sep 27, 2000

Hey nursedude first off I'm with pinkye1, I think I love you too!! All your posts have been right on. You know the more I thought about this after reading your last post the more I've come to believe part of it might just be a "woman thing". Women are raised to be care givers and this passes over into their professional lives. Obviously nursing lends itself very well to this. Women in general have been taught to care for others unselfishly to the exclusion of themselves. And to ask (and I say ask because demand would be unlady-like, unwomanly, selfish etc.), for the pay and respect they deserve for what they know and do would be deemed selfish. We are "supposed" to bend over backwards to help someone without thinking twice about what it might do to ourselves, self esteem, dignity. I noticed that in some of the other postings people are confusing demanding adequate pay and respect with pt. care and the two have nothing to do with each other. It IS possible to do both! Just because we want to be paid adequately doesn't mean we don't care about our pts. Many are stuck in the Pollyanna mode, "I love my patients and caring for them and everything is just fine, there is goodness in everything". Or definitely the martyr. "I will sacrifice all for my patients including my self-esteem and dignity. It's for mankind. I'm the angel of mercy. I don't need to get paid at all because I do this from my heart" blah blah blah etc. Get with it people!!! I care about my pts. just as much as anyone else does. And yes I like my job. But, I see nursing as a profession and expect to be treated as such and be paid what I am worth. All the emotional and nice-nice stuff is great and should not be taken out of our daily care but what about the other things we do and know? Our profession includes knowledge of the sciences, chemistry, anat./phys., biology, social sciences etc. We combine these with the emotional support and care we give our pts.

Anyway, I don't think descriptions like martyr, passive-aggressive, or co-dependent are symptoms of nursing. We (because most of us are female) came into nursing that way and of course the powers that be take advantage of that and believe it themselves.

Well that's my take on it.

Hey nursedude, are you going to enlighten us on pinkye1's e-mail? I'm dying to hear!!

nursedude · Sep 27, 2000

Okay,

NOW THERE IS A PROBLEM...It seems as if I have started a fire so to say. Well, maybe I didn't really start it- it's been burning all along but maybe I just poured a little gasoline on it. What I am saying is the both Pinkeye and Doey agree that the "do it cause you like to vs do it to get paid thing" is kind of a "woman thing". Please Hold-on I am not trying to be sexist- rather look at Doey's last post where she starts out saying that "Women are raised to be care givers and this passes over into their professional lives." I don't want to sound sexist but that statement is pretty accurate.

The gasoline that I am talking about is also highlighted by Doey as well:

"I noticed that in some of the other postings people are confusing demanding adequate pay and respect with pt. care and the two have nothing to do with each other." And: "Just because we want to be paid adequately doesn't mean we don't care about our pts."

Doey, without a doubt, I love you too You and Pinkeye have said what I have been trying to say all along in this ugly thread(not to mention the largest on this site) and you both have managed to say it in plain english!!! (Oh, and that brings up another issue I have...Did you notice that on the www.allnurses.com homepage, that it lists the topics on the bulletin board that were last visited/posted on? For some reason, this topic/thread "Nursing is pathetic" NEVER appears... What is up with that???)

Now, here is where I slip up and maybe cut my throat with all those who have so adamantly opposed me on this thread...

I have seen many postings about "The Million Nurse March" on this site...Have you?

Now, taking the attitude that much of society has about nurses into account -ie: "And to ask (and I say ask because demand would be unlady-like, unwomanly, selfish etc.), for the pay and respect they deserve for what they know and do would be deemed selfish." Just how would a few thousand nurses marching on Pennsylvania Ave be percieved by Society? The media? The Insurance Industry?

My point is that the insurance industry owns healthcare basically- The insurance industry is huge and all powerful. It has the power to eat the media for lunch and if the insurance industry doesn't like the fact that a bunch of nurses ("women" who are overpaid/undereducated) are protesting "Guess what?" The million nurse march will be greased over faster than you can say "HMO"...

Instead I say "Grab em by the kahuna's" and every nurse in the country call off sick that day instead...(If you want to play with the boys, you have to play LIKE the boys).

But I'm just a guy...Or am I "just a nurse"?

Doey, I'm loving you back as well! Hopefully you still love me too...

P.S. One more thing...

Isn't it ironic that so many of those who opposed me in this thread support the idea of "The million nurse march"? If nursing is something you do because you want to then why would they condone an organized effort where one of the reasons for the effort is for bettr pay, respect and working conditions???

[This message has been edited by nursedude (edited September 27, 2000).]

rncountry · Sep 27, 2000

You have raised an interesting question about the million nurse march and insurance groups. I had not been to this site in quite some time because I had decided I was leaving nursing one way or another. I came back to it after I got an email regarding the march idea, and I thought finally, maybe enough nurses are waking up that some change will occur. I have not been actively nursing for just over a month now, and I do not intend on going back unless some changes of substance are mad. I am working on starting my own business, a gift business, nothing to do with health care. Your point about this being a female doiminated industry and perhaps that is why there is the mentality of caetaking regardless of pay, regardless of working conditions is well taken. I am a female and agree with that concept. I also think that is why we are so good at bitching and moaning, but not taking an activist stand and saying enough is enough. I know that I am angry that I was forced to have to make a choice between my career and my sanity. I enjoy nursing, when I can actually nurse the patients that I am responsible for, and I miss that aspect of it. However I can no longer come home mentally and physically exhausted, not wanting to deal with anything at home. I have a family and a home life that should not have to always take a back seat to what I do for a living. There have been many times that it infuriates me that the guy across the street from me makes twice what I make working at GM, with a wonderful retirement package. My father-in-law just retired from GM, I envy what he has. Yes, nurses deserve to be paid according to what they do, and we should not feel that we should apologize for feeling that way. I have been nursing for 10 years, and I would never recommend nursing to anyone. A few years ago I would. I have worked in a neuro intensive care unit, until I got divorced and I had to have a day job, which led me to nursing home care. Nursing homes, now that is another whole subject by itself, but let me tell you it sucks!!! not only for the nurse but for the patients. I digress, the nursing march is a good idea I believe and if we can organize it, with perhaps the help of the Cal. nursing organization since they seem quite activist, we may have a chance to be successful. May I suggest that since you seem so passionate about your position that you seriously look at what could be achieved if we can stand together? I do tend to agree that in order to be heard than we need to do something dramatic, a massive call-in is not good for patients, but it sure as hell would get peoples attention. One way or another we need to do that, and being nice isn't going to get us anywhere. Your post is certainly a way to get peoples attention and that is something we need, rather everyone liked the way it was worded or not. So you go! But in the meantime what are you going to do to make a difference? Will you march? Will you help organize? Etc...

Doey, BSN, RN · Sep 28, 2000

Nursedude don't worry still love ya . You bring up an interesting point about the "Million Nurse March". And you're right. We have to do more "Grab them by the kahunas" type things to get their attention. But it seems everytime we are in a position to do so (no pun intended), we never take advantage of it. Oh, and I did notice that this thread does not appear on the homepage when a there is a new post. I was wondering about that myself.

nursedude · Sep 28, 2000

Doey,

Yes, isn't it ironic? Whenever there is a post to "this" thread- it does not update on the allnurses.com home page??? Funny... It's as if someone (I wonder who it could be?) doesn't appreciate the tone of this thread... Pardon my sarcasm...

Here is the way it boils down...

The guy who runs this site is supposedly a nurse. He came up with a good idea when he came up with allnurses.com There really isn't much in the way of competion on the www when it comes to sites for nurses. He probably does pretty well at making money with it- not great, but I would venture to say that it is profitable to some degree and that is what the purpose of his allnurses site is... I doubt he is doing this for free.

Anyhow, like any good businessman, in order to keep the $ coming in on a website there has to be advertisers. In order to get advertisers, you need lots of "hits" (visits to your site). Well, here is the reason this thread no longer makes it to the homepage. I believe that it has turned off many of his visitors ie: "hits". It makes people think, it makes them see reality and well they aren't able to deal with it so they either don't come back to the site and/or they complain via email to the owner of this site about this "terrible thread"- the "nursing is pathetic" thread.... And that causes less hits to this site and that directly impacts the revenue made from advertising...SO, this thread is blocked from that front page...It is ironic too that even though it is blocked IT STILL HAS THE MOST REPLIES than any other string on the boards???

http://millionnursemarch.com/cgi/page.cgi?g=MNM_Merchandise%2F&t=mnm&d=1

The above link is a crystal clear example of how the nurses coming to this site are being manipulated... Someone is going to attempt to make a profit off of the million nurse march by selling t-shirts and baseball caps???!!! C'mon nurses. We are talking about your profession here, we are talking about the future well-being of millions of patients and some guy who hosts a website is going to exploit that effort by selling "Million Nurse March Merchandise"?

Rncountry, did you really read my last post? What I said there was that a few thousand women marching on downtown DC is not dramatic enough..."I do tend to agree that in order to be heard than we need to do something dramatic, a massive call-in is not good for patients, but it sure as hell would get peoples attention." Just what do you think would be dramatic enough??? And besides, who is going to take care of all those patients on the day of the million nurse march???

"But in the meantime what are you going to do to make a difference?"

In the meantime I am extremely vocal about my position/views. I tell everyone what is going on. I tell patients that they have better insurance than the nurses I work with that take care of them...I tell them "Don't get sick - there aren't enough nurses to take care of you." I tell my family and friends that healthcare is going down the tubes, I come to this site and try to tell other nurses that they are being used by hospitals to make revenue for executives but the majority of them refuse to listen.... I quit working as a nurse fulltime... I will NOT allow someone to profit off of the patient's misfortune and my hard labor... I do not condone the abuse of nurses and patients by money hungry executives in hospitals and insurance companies... What about you RNcountry? What are YOU doing or are your actions(working for a hospital) still condoning this abuse? Why is it that a massive call off is "not good for patients" but allowing millions of patients to be literally neglected every day of the year okay?

Maybe I'm being too harsh....Maybe all those nurses out there are right....Maybe I should go back fulltime to the ER and make less money and get worse medical benifits...Maybe I should tell my kids "sorry, we can't afford to buy you new shoes or clothes or ? this month- Daddy is (just) a nurse and he likes doing that so we can't eat this week???

W.T.F?

oramar · Sep 28, 2000

Originally posted by nursedude:
Doey,

Yes, isn't it ironic? Whenever there is a post to "this" thread- it does not update on the allnurses.com home page??? Funny... It's as if someone (I wonder who it could be?) doesn't appreciate the tone of this thread... Pardon my sarcasm...

Here is the way it boils down...

The guy who runs this site is supposedly a nurse. He came up with a good idea when he came up with allnurses.com There really isn't much in the way of competion on the www when it comes to sites for nurses. He probably does pretty well at making money with it- not great, but I would venture to say that it is profitable to some degree and that is what the purpose of his allnurses site is... I doubt he is doing this for free.

Anyhow, like any good businessman, in order to keep the $ coming in on a website there has to be advertisers. In order to get advertisers, you need lots of "hits" (visits to your site). Well, here is the reason this thread no longer makes it to the homepage. I believe that it has turned off many of his visitors ie: "hits". It makes people think, it makes them see reality and well they aren't able to deal with it so they either don't come back to the site and/or they complain via email to the owner of this site about this "terrible thread"- the "nursing is pathetic" thread.... And that causes less hits to this site and that directly impacts the revenue made from advertising...SO, this thread is blocked from that front page...It is ironic too that even though it is blocked IT STILL HAS THE MOST REPLIES than any other string on the boards???

http://millionnursemarch.com/cgi/page.cgi?g=MNM_Merchandise%2F&t=mnm&d=1

The above link is a crystal clear example of how the nurses coming to this site are being manipulated... Someone is going to attempt to make a profit off of the million nurse march by selling t-shirts and baseball caps???!!! C'mon nurses. We are talking about your profession here, we are talking about the future well-being of millions of patients and some guy who hosts a website is going to exploit that effort by selling "Million Nurse March Merchandise"?

Rncountry, did you really read my last post? What I said there was that a few thousand women marching on downtown DC is not dramatic enough..."I do tend to agree that in order to be heard than we need to do something dramatic, a massive call-in is not good for patients, but it sure as hell would get peoples attention." Just what do you think would be dramatic enough??? And besides, who is going to take care of all those patients on the day of the million nurse march???

"But in the meantime what are you going to do to make a difference?"

In the meantime I am extremely vocal about my position/views. I tell everyone what is going on. I tell patients that they have better insurance than the nurses I work with that take care of them...I tell them "Don't get sick - there aren't enough nurses to take care of you." I tell my family and friends that healthcare is going down the tubes, I come to this site and try to tell other nurses that they are being used by hospitals to make revenue for executives but the majority of them refuse to listen.... I quit working as a nurse fulltime... I will NOT allow someone to profit off of the patient's misfortune and my hard labor... I do not condone the abuse of nurses and patients by money hungry executives in hospitals and insurance companies... What about you RNcountry? What are YOU doing or are your actions(working for a hospital) still condoning this abuse? Why is it that a massive call off is "not good for patients" but allowing millions of patients to be literally neglected every day of the year okay?

Maybe I'm being too harsh....Maybe all those nurses out there are right....Maybe I should go back fulltime to the ER and make less money and get worse medical benifits...Maybe I should tell my kids "sorry, we can't afford to buy you new shoes or clothes or ? this month- Daddy is (just) a nurse and he likes doing that so we can't eat this week???

W.T.F?

You know what Nurse Dude, I have been with you on a lot of things but I just do not believe B.Short is shying from controversy. He has never done it before. That is why this site cooks. It must be a technical thing.

nursedude · Sep 28, 2000

You know what Nurse Dude, I have been with you on a lot of things but I just do not believe B.Short is shying from controversy. He has never done it before. That is why this site cooks. It must be a technical thing. [/b]

Come on Oramar...Cut me a break... It is a technical thing! He is blocking this thread because it negatively impacts the site as a whole. IE: LESS HITS to the site... For crying out loud- this thread has the most replies of any thread on the site and it's "A Technical thing"?

I think Brian has you fooled...

Brian, ASN, RN · Sep 29, 2000

As the Owner/Administrator of allnurses.com, I just wanted to post a few words in my defense and to straighten out a few slanderous remarks

Nursedude, you crack me up :-) I actually do enjoy reading your post. But you have got it all wrong with your idea on why this thread isn't listed on the main page....

Not all forums are posted on the main page. There are only about 5 or six of the more popular forums listed, this forum was not one of them. The program that pulls topics from these forums and puts them on the homepage takes a lot of system resources. Every time the homepage is loaded, the program searches the selected forums and displays the results. If it searched all 60 or so forums it would take forever for the homepage to load, which nobody would like. The reason for this is to keep the homepage load speed faster. It isn't some evil scheme that you thought up, although I must say, you are very creative :-) BTW, I have never received one complaint about this thread. I do not censor postings, unless they do not abide with the Rules/Policies https://allnurses.com/bb/cgi/Ultimate.cgi?action=agree >

About your comment that I am going to make a profit from the Million Nurse March by selling products? Again, you are completely wrong. The current site at http://millionnursemarch.com/ is currently just a test site, which was thrown together very quickly. It includes nothing other than suggestions/ideas of what people suggested to put on the site. Merchandise, was one of the ideas given to promote the march. So we created a test category for it. My only involvement with http://millionnursemarch.com/ is donating some of the development and hosting the website. If you don't understand what you are talking about, please don't make remarks that are not true.

FYI, I am still a Registered Nurse (although, I am currently not working in a clinical setting). I do run allnurses.com full-time as a business and it has been a profitable business in case you were wondering.

So Nursedude, and others.... Please, don't be so quick to post things that you don't know to be true.

Just my 2 cents... Lighten up

------------------

Brian Short

https://allnurses.com

It's how nurses surf the web!

[This message has been edited by bshort (edited September 28, 2000).]