Anybody considered legal action against BONs for non-recognition?

elkpark · Jan 10, 2005

And this BB and others like it are replete with anecdotal evidence of just how inconsistently those standards are met on a day to day basis.
Certainly it appears that there isn't grounds for a lawsuit, but if, for example, foreign grads can be licensed in a state, and their programs aren't approved by the BON.... If grads of, say, a state not known for outstanding academic standards (about 25 states would be in the lower half of the "top 50 American states academically," wouldnt' they?) and grads of those programs in those states can be licensed in, say the top one or two states..... I think you see where I'm going with this. (BTW, which half of the scale do you think New York falls in? )

I was not defending any particular brick & mortar nursing program, or traditional nursing programs in general -- or anything about the nursing status quo, for that matter -- just pointing out that state BONs do have the statutory authority to determine what qualifications they will and won't accept for licensure in their state, whether their decisions make sense or not.

marshalbc77 · Jan 11, 2005

So what's Excelsior doing about this to preserve their integrity? Seems like they are just sitting around and not fighting. Next thing you know all the states will not recognize EC. I'm about to take my CPNE last week of Feb and throughout my experience of doing Excelsior there were people that discourage me and encourage me. The people who discourage dislike Excelsior Program because in their eyes it wasn't the 'norm' it was a sub-standard way of learning. But in all actuality, distance education requires full discipline, determination and motivation that many people may not have the capacity of doing. I fight for EC and all distance learning institutions in general. I'm a full-time employee, a full-time mother to two boys and without EC as an alternative way of getting my RN it would not been possible to achieve it. Bottom line it's politics I'll copy and paste my previous post.

copy & paste below post 6/2004

My colleagues and I where in the break room congratulating one of our fellow LVN's who just got here RN-IP she has been an LVN for approx. over 10 years she did Excelsior College. I am too doing Excelsior. So that subject came up.

One of our RN's just graduated with here BSN from our local university. This new grad BSN is pretty neutral about Distance Learning she doesn't say anything bad about it but she prefers traditional school over it. Well she stated that in her school where she got her BSN from "they said that New York state are taking back the license of Excelsior Grads and making them re-take the Boards". I'm assuming "they" are her instructors or the Nursing Dept. I did a little bit of research but found nothing regarding this matter and if this was the case in New York for sure I would see this subject here in this bulletin board. If this is not true then the local university is making Excelsior College look real bad. Let me tell you guys where I am, I'm in California. In my own opinion I think that whole Excelsior College not being valid in California is a conspiracy theory.I feel it has a lot do to with politics and money. But, I do agree that it's not for someone with limited experience. Pls. correct me if I am wrong I find this a bit Ironic. The Organization/People who complaint to the BRN about Excelsior are: 1.Kaiser Permanente, who has RN's working for them that are Excelsior Grads. 2.CNA (California Nurse's Association)-an RN union the voice of RN's a lot of those RN's that they represent are Excelsior Grads 3.Charles Frye- A business man who helps you to obtain your nursing degree through where else...... Excelsior.

CSLee3, ASN, BSN, LVN, EMT-P · Jan 11, 2005

IMHO a Class-Action suit would hold up! Here is why....

1. EC is accredited institution (Middle States ) the same accrediting agency as say Brown, Princeton and Boston College.

2. EC's Nursing Program is accredited by NLNCC...the same agency that accredits all nursing programs....AND YES NURSING PROGRAMS IN USA ARE STANDARDIZED....BY 1. NLNCC AND NCLEX- Curriculum based 2. State Boards simply approve or deny the programs....that is where the bias is.

3. If say, JOE Blow Jr. College is accreditated and JOE BLUE College is not, THEY BOTH have the same creditentials....then what is next......Let me see, Like Joe Blow Jr. College YOUR uniform is not WHite and the majority OF YOUR POPULATION is a minority, so lets not renew your standing or accreditation in this state.....SEE, very subjective.

4. IF EC NCLEX pass rates are equal or higher to traditional schools, which I am sure it is,...then so be it.

6. Local community colleges and universit's are now doing online classes and nursing courses with alternative clincicals...EC IS the PIONEER here!

TO ME A GOOD TRIAL LAWYER COULD VERY EASILY WIN A CLASS ACTION SUIT FOR THE GROUP OF EXCELSIOR STUDENTS FIGHTING....

I WISH EC WOULD SPEND SOME OF OUR TUITION MONEY TO FIGHT THEIR FIGHT.

chip193 · Jan 11, 2005

I'm an EC grad - a recent one - 9 months ago, with a NY and MA license. Neither state has suspended, amended, revoked, or in any way restricted my license!

It's a farce that the instructors are spreading as they want her to return there for her MSN!

Chip

So what's Excelsior doing about this to preserve their integrity? Seems like they are just sitting around and not fighting. Next thing you know all the states will not recognize EC. I'm about to take my CPNE last week of Feb and throughout my experience of doing Excelsior there were people that discourage me and encourage me. The people who discourage dislike Excelsior Program because in their eyes it wasn't the 'norm' it was a sub-standard way of learning. But in all actuality, distance education requires full discipline, determination and motivation that many people may not have the capacity of doing. I fight for EC and all distance learning institutions in general. I'm a full-time employee, a full-time mother to two boys and without EC as an alternative way of getting my RN it would not been possible to achieve it. Bottom line it's politics I'll copy and paste my previous post.
copy & paste below post 6/2004
My colleagues and I where in the break room congratulating one of our fellow LVN's who just got here RN-IP she has been an LVN for approx. over 10 years she did Excelsior College. I am too doing Excelsior. So that subject came up.
One of our RN's just graduated with here BSN from our local university. This new grad BSN is pretty neutral about Distance Learning she doesn't say anything bad about it but she prefers traditional school over it. Well she stated that in her school where she got her BSN from "they said that New York state are taking back the license of Excelsior Grads and making them re-take the Boards". I'm assuming "they" are her instructors or the Nursing Dept. I did a little bit of research but found nothing regarding this matter and if this was the case in New York for sure I would see this subject here in this bulletin board. If this is not true then the local university is making Excelsior College look real bad. Let me tell you guys where I am, I'm in California. In my own opinion I think that whole Excelsior College not being valid in California is a conspiracy theory.I feel it has a lot do to with politics and money. But, I do agree that it's not for someone with limited experience. Pls. correct me if I am wrong I find this a bit Ironic. The Organization/People who complaint to the BRN about Excelsior are: 1.Kaiser Permanente, who has RN's working for them that are Excelsior Grads. 2.CNA (California Nurse's Association)-an RN union the voice of RN's a lot of those RN's that they represent are Excelsior Grads 3.Charles Frye- A business man who helps you to obtain your nursing degree through where else...... Excelsior.

mobileLPN · Jan 12, 2005

While I've already mentioned my distaste for KS, I would happily participate in a lawsuit against the KS BON just to set a precedent. I take NC 7 next week and then will take (and hopefully pass) the CPNE within a few months. We'll need to round up a like minded lawyer who works cheap :). PM me if anybody is interested in playing!

I think it's important to note that Excelsior is accredited by Middle States and NLNAC. Both of those are recognized by the federal governments DOE as "accepted accrediting organizations". If it's good enough for the feds, it should be good enough for the states.

Another aside: Here's an idea. The big grief seems to be that there is no clinical instruction "concurrent" with theory instruction. Why doesn't Excelsior just make its CPNE workshop mandatory, and require it BEFORE the last NC exam is taken. Sure it adds a few hundred bucks to the program, but it would meet the letter of the law.

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Jan 12, 2005

...I would happily participate in a lawsuit against the KS BON just to set a precedent.

If you aren't personally harmed, you have no basis for a lawsuit. Yeah, you could file one, but it would get kicked out/dismissed. It's the basis for the civil legal system, at least in the US. I'm guessing you do not live in KS and never intended to practice there. That's what it would take for KS's decision to "harm" you.

We'll need to round up a like minded lawyer who works cheap :).

I've lived a lot of years and met a lot of lawyers. Never came across one like this who was also sober, sane, successful enough to trust, knew the law and/or was skilled enough to succeed, AND had an IQ above about room temp. If you do, odds are good they are aware of that business of not being harmed (above).

I think it's important to note that Excelsior is accredited by Middle States and NLNAC. Both of those are recognized by the federal governments DOE as "accepted accrediting organizations". If it's good enough for the feds, it should be good enough for the states.

I heartily agree. We are moving toward a national licensure. However, it is going to take a majority of the states agreeing to it. (Were you here for the Equal Rights Amendment? We didn't get that either.) The compact states' arrangement is the best step in that direction. As states join, they are agreeing to a basic criterion for its nurses. When there are 26 states signed on to the compact, then there is a good argument for nationalizing the licensure. Then the NLN can be more like JCAHO but for nursing schools, which they sorta already are.

The big grief seems to be that there is no clinical instruction "concurrent" with theory instruction. Why doesn't Excelsior just make its CPNE workshop mandatory, and require it BEFORE the last NC exam is taken. Sure it adds a few hundred bucks to the program, but it would meet the letter of the law.

You are right about the big grief, and it is legitimate. I am certain that there probably are EC alums who are clinical shoddy but who (obviously) passed the CPNE. I don't think there are many, but I do think it is possible to pass the CPNE and not know your stuff totally. And I think the three day workshops (now combined, I see) are an excellent means of getting a sense of whether you know your stuff or not.

HOWEVER, I don't think the 24 hours workshop will cut it, when a brick-and-mortar program has a minimum of 24 hours per clinical WEEK in the last two semesters alone. California's idea about an 80 hour intensive clinical is a start.

Clinicals aren't just about going through the motions as assigned, they are about assessing your client, evaluating their chart, writing careplans the night before and researching their medical conditions and nursing diagnoses, developing interventions. Then you see the patient, you double check to see what's changed since you did that assessment (based on their chart), you tweak your nursing diagnoses and interventions, you go in and implement your plan, you evaluate your outcomes and tweak and adjust for that. In addition, you demonstrate that you know pretty much everything short of the chemical structure of the meds you are administering to the patient.

You can't get that in three days. In keeping with EC's tradition of "you go out and learn it and then come show us what you know," you really cannot demonstrate that you know it in three days, either.

I don't know what the solution is. Maybe requiring the least amount of actual hours that any NLN approved school requires, as a basis for admission to the program in the first place? Maybe an optional clinical program that floats from city to city like the CPNE/Skills workshop? But who can take off, say, a month? And who could afford to pay what EC would ask?

I still think the current system is the best one. It's not 100% foolproof, but neither are the trad schools. We've all seen unskilled, substandard nurses, unfortunately. The vast majority went to trad schools.

I don't know what the answer is, except that the compact states like us well enough, and there are more and more of them all the time.

But suing states is not the answer. It's like that joke about teaching a pig to sing. You won't get what you want, and it just makes them mad.

chris_at_lucas_RN, RN · Jan 12, 2005

Pls. correct me if I am wrong I find this a bit Ironic. The Organization/People who complaint to the BRN about Excelsior are: 1.Kaiser Permanente, who has RN's working for them that are Excelsior Grads. 2.CNA (California Nurse's Association)-an RN union the voice of RN's a lot of those RN's that they represent are Excelsior Grads 3.Charles Frye- A business man who helps you to obtain your nursing degree through where else...... Excelsior.

(italics mine.)

Here's what Frye's got his knickers in a knot over..... EC is suing him for copyright infringement.

Yahoo!!!! Now if they would just go after the others who take EC's materials and sell them, wouldn't that be a show!

Laurie888 · Jan 12, 2005

Except that I for one like the idea of CA's 80 hour clinical. Even a 40 hour clinical offered in various parts of the country would be useful. It would be a very viable and I suspect used resource for many EC grads, but I don't think it should be mandatory.Internships are always a possibliity but most hopsitals that offer them have limited opneings and the competition is traditional students with letters of recommendations from their instructors -- we can't easily get something equivalent.

I'm not sure I get what the problem is -- I had 4 months' clinicals in LPN school plus 3 full terms of RN clinicals in trad school, that about equals what I would have had I been able to finish the program. The LPNs here all had 9-12 or more months of intensive clinicals (from my own experience, more indepth ones than I had in RN school) and most have been working a good year before they finish EC -- if that isn't clinical experience, what is?

But there are those of us who feel a little rusty (I'm several years out of nursing school with only a few years CNA work thrown in the mix). In my mind I can see my clinical experiences, and with my eyes I see what the students who come to our hospital are doing, and I don't think I'm missing anything but I still feel rusty. I'm opting for the 5-day workshop at Chancellor's because I think I need it, if excelsior offered something similar I would go through them. It's an option that fits MY particular need and I don't see how making something like these mandatory for working LPNS would help, if working in the field isn't clnical experinece what is?

Sheri257 · Jan 12, 2005

Except that I for one like the idea of CA's 80 hour clinical.

I still don't understand where people are getting the idea that California is considering an 80 hour clinical requirement for EC. :confused:

If you look at the most recently published board minutes, the board talks about a $230,000 appropriation to fight EC's lawsuit on this issue, and the minutes state that EC is "an out of state nursing program that must comply with California law."

http://www.rn.ca.gov/meetings/pdf/brdmins.pdf

California law requires a lot more than 80 clinical hours, which is why the board disallowed the program in the first place. If I recall correctly, the law requires 360 hours, not 80.

And I still don't understand why the board would be spending $230,000 to fight the lawsuit if they were working on a compromise with EC.

Does someone have a link discussing this 80 hour proposal or is this just rumor? Because I can't find anything on the CA BORN site that indicates a change in their position.

:confused:

kimlpn · Jan 12, 2005

I haven't heard anything about the 80 hours either. I am in Florida but want to be licensed in California since I have family in cali. I just finished my CPNE, so I called the California board to see if I was able to get initially licensed or be able to endorse in...this was their answer... YES, since I was enrolled in EC before the cut off date and remained enrolled until I graduated...I can endorse in or sit for initial licensure. If you did not become enrolled with Excelsior before the Dec 03 cut off date they said at this point they will not allow you to sit for boards or even endorse in. They sounded pretty firm on it and said the decision is unchanged. I am glad I enrolled prior to this date. I really liked the EC program but unfortunately I think many states are going to follow CA. Kansas said NO outright and Colorado will be holding meetings on the 21st about the decision but I presume they will say no or apply a cut off date, too. My belief is that EC may have burnt themselves by allowing people in the program with very little clinical experience into the program....something they corrected but maybe a little too late. I also think money is involved as EC takes away money that could be applied to state schools--sad because some can't attend traditionally. It is more than one factor. If I had not had near 10 years of nursing experience and 4.0 at my community college, I would not have gone this route. I am so grateful for it because I kept my daughter at home and avoided daycare. I really think the only way a program like this can be successful is if they only accept students who have had verified NURSING care like being an LPN. I also advise people going into the program to carefully follow all that is going on...you don't want to be caught up in mess if another board just stops accepting EC with no notice like Kansas did. The program has benefits and downs just like many programs.

Kim

Laurie888 · Jan 12, 2005

It's just an idea I picked up from reading here, and I still like the IDEA. My point is I think it's a good one as a supplemental resource to those of us who might actually need a refresher in clinicals..

I don't plan on working in California and even if I wasn't afraid of falling into the ocean I enrolled before the cut-off date.

I still don't understand where people are getting the idea that California is considering an 80 hour clinical requirement for EC.
If you look at the most recently published board minutes, the board talks about a $230,000 appropriation to fight EC's lawsuit on this issue, and the minutes state that EC is "an out of state nursing program that must comply with California law."
http://www.rn.ca.gov/meetings/pdf/brdmins.pdf
California law requires a lot more than 80 clinical hours, which is why the board disallowed the program in the first place. If I recall correctly, the law requires 360 hours, not 80.
And I still don't understand why the board would be spending $230,000 to fight the lawsuit if they were working on a compromise with EC.
Does someone have a link discussing this 80 hour proposal or is this just rumor? Because I can't find anything on the CA BORN site that indicates a change in their position.

marshalbc77 · Jan 14, 2005

let me share something about traditional school 'clinical hours'. I work at a med/surg floor teaching hospital so we get a lot of nursing students from the local community college. A 4th semester RN student (about to graduate) is partner up with a 'veteran' nurse for xx amount of hours for xx amount of weeks (preceptorship). Because these nursing students were '4th Semesters' they were very much independent carried their own load independently up to 6 patients and sometimes 'covered' the LVNs IV's and/or IVP's. There were no nursing instructors present for these particular students, at times their instructors would come in just to check on them see how their day was going etc. One particular event that strike me was, during the holidays a student was putting up holiday decorations on our floor, that was his 'clinical hours' that traditional school have over EC the whole shift 12 hours of it he spent putting holiday decorations. But hey, clinical hours is a MUST to become a RN in California per BRN, who cares what you do as long you reach those 'required clinical hours' that only traditional school offer.

I have no problem with this student his an excellent/great nurse. It's more a general perspective looking at traditional schools and how students spend their time in 'clinical', some of these traditional school student walk the halls just to look busy, at times they can't even find their own instructor and have to ask the staff nurses for help. Comparing students at EC many have a lot of experience in the medical field already, EC just fitted their schedule than traditional school it's flexible, it made a lot of people balance both a family and a career. For the people who did attend traditional school, worked full time, a full time mother/father I give u all much props,good for you. For I would probably could not have done that or it will take me years to do it.

I think Distance Education is needed more than ever due to this modern day lifestyle where everyone of us are always busy with family, work, extra curricular activities.

What angers me is that many lost or will loose the opportunity to become RN's through an alternative way just because someone high up notice a different kind of trend and got all freak out because it wasn't the 'norm' or the conservative way or it was taking away money from them. A Nurse Practioner, Phd. once told me that "you have a goal to fulfill. There are many avenues to your goal the main thing is to reach that goal." She compared it with, 'It's like going a Las Vegas, there are different routes to take but in the end you will end up there'. So for those of you who participate in Distance Education don't give up, don't get discourage because of all this talk about EC not being accepted so and so. Hurry up and finish and get that RN License.