Importing Foreign-trained nurses

mopsi · Nov 14, 2001

I'm curious over the ammount of postings from"SHANDI" and the content. I am wondering your age and occupation? Why is your mom in the UK, and you're here in Cleveland?This is not a particularly racist city. Since the attack on the US the common bond between all of us as AMERICANS has superceeded any prior needs for antiquated squabling over racism.The problems we are facing as a nation are grave.The problems we are facing as nurses are also grave.I have been a nurse for sometime now.Most of the difficulties faced in the workplace came from adminstration and their policies, not from fellow workers.There are always a few who would not be my choice for "FRIENDS" however this did not preclude me from a working relationship.Perhaps you could benefit by expanding your point of reference to you own instead of basing all thought processing on your interpretation of stories your Mom told you.If you are so against "NURSES" and the people of this country why are you spending so much valuable time posting and reading in our Forum?

SharonH, RN · Nov 14, 2001

Brad, first off let me say that on a certain level I agree with your sentiment in that the hospitals and the administration are using the importation of foreign nurses as a band-aid solution to the nursing shortage rather than deal with what has caused the current crisis. I also agree that this must be stopped or else we will find that our current situation will continue to deteriorate.

I must address the tangent you went off on in regards to the poor working here in the States.

Originally posted by Peeps Mcarthur

I think the reason the corporations running the hospitals want to recruit foreing nurses is for the same reasons they want to see scholarships going to the poor here in the U.S. Both sectors are working class poor and will accept dirt wages as manna from heaven. They will think that dangerouse patient loads are normal. No lunch or bathroom....ok.
They will be right behind you waiting for you to refuse an assingment.
Waiting for you to refuse crappy wages.
Waiting for you to leave a job because of abuse.
waiting for you to screw up and give the administration the slightest excuse to hire someone at less pay that they can push around.
I've lived in both Arizona and Texas. Look around next time you go through there. It's a specimen of what is coming for nurses if you don't act.
The money for education is going to the hispanics and native americans. They have quotas that can't be filled fast enough. Free money, without expectation of performance it turns out, is pretty easy to give away.[/Quote]
That's a pretty harsh generalization, don't you think? I too have lived in Texas. My first job was in a county hospital in which 90% of the staff was Hispanic. Coincidentally, my nurse manager was Filipina who was recruited to this country. There was no lowering of standards in regards to either pay or work conditions. Neither was the standard of care lower.
Those minorities(not for long) are filling jobs with that education, at lower wages, with poorer working conditions, because that's what they're gonna put up with. When they get put in a position of hiring they naturally hire other minorities and they use the quotas that got them hired as an excuse for qualifying them as the best candidate.
The employers could not be more pleased. They are filling the positions with eager punctual employees. That will work for table scraps. They won't ***** about not getting health insurance. They never heard of not accepting a work assingment. They TRY to get overtime.
Again, gross generalizations. What evidence are you basing this on?
It all starts very quietly as a bill with no SPECICFIC language. Just some money to buy some votes. The lawmakers on capitol hill give the power to the local governments to disburse funds so the local guys can see where they need to shore up support for they're party. They talk in beautiful syntax of the money for education going to all who want it. A virtual cornucopia of wealth to give "nursing" a shot in the arm. That gets the bill passed. Then they look for a specific group to throw it at. African-americans are already voting largely Democratic anyway and besides they have thier OWN exclusionary scholarship programs and grants that even people that are'nt from this country can't get.
I'm not sure where that shot at African-Americans came from, but it seems irrevelant. Exclusionary scholarship programs? Are you really suggesting that AA's have some type of leg up in that department?
In the meantime you have an influx of immigration. Future votes that need a cause. You have the poor, that need a reason to vote, and all You have left is a quota of nurses to set. No one can speak out against it. You can't speak out against poor people or immigrants(they were at one time the foundation of the industrial revolution) They all scrape by with a "C" cause they're scared **itless of the language barrier. and Badda -Boom- Badda- Bing...... you have a new manager that doesn't even really speak fluent english and couldn't tell you what that "thingy" does anyway. If it hasn't happend to you yet, it can't be far off. Some of our own think it would relieve the current shortage.
It will of course. Your tax dollars will fund it. Your quality of life will decrease and you'll be working for the formerly "disadvantaged". The employers will finaly have the "stepford wives" as employees and YOU WILL FUND IT.
Again I must ask, what research do you have to support your assumption that educational and care standards will fall off so? You got angry about Shandi calling you a racist but this whole paragraph reeks of the 'S' word........scapegoating.
Nursing has some real problems but who has dominated the field from the beginning and who continue to dominate it? White women. Nurses find themselves in this position because of a lack of focus and an inability to stick together. The profession has already deteriotated to conditions which are unbearable and you can't blame that on foreign nurses. You can't even blame it on hospital administration because we are letting it happen.

-jt · Nov 14, 2001

Youre right about that. And just what did too many US nurses say when the nurses in Warsaw, Poland went on strike for months last year, storming government offices, barricading streets, and scuffling with the police over the poverty-level wages they were being paid?? And what did too many US nurses say recently when Canadian nurses of entire provinces threatened a mass resignation that would have shut down healthcare in their states - because the govt wasnt addressing their issues & then wanted to take away their right to strike over it?? Too many US nurses BLASTED these brave nurses for their "unprofessionalism"!!! As if to too many US nurses, it is "unprofessional" to demand decent wages and working conditions for themselves.

Anyway, since this topic has elicited such strong emotion, I just want to clarify that the ANA is NOT condemming foreign-trained nurses working in this country nor is it attempting to prevent foreign nurse recruitment. It is objecting only to the hospitals push to drastically INCREASE the numbers of foreign-trained nurses they can bring in to fill the gap RATHER THAN focus on repairing the problems and conditions the hospitals foster that are driving US nurses away & keeping them away.

Also, the ANA is objecting to hospitals enticing more and more foreign-trained nurses to leave their countries in the midst of their own severe nursing shortages, where many times they are the only healthcare professional available to their communities. Drawing nurses away from places where they are desparately needed just so you dont have to deal with fixing your own problems & attracting the nurses you already have available in your own country is pretty offensive, ethically.

Besides that, I know of one recruiter who was sent to the United Kingdom with a budget of a million $$$ to recruit UK nurses (at the same time the UK is having its own shortage & is trying to recruit from India, Phillipines,and all points East.) Reminds me of the song "here we go round the mulberry bush". Anyway, how many of us cant think of 50 other ways that hospital could have better spent that million $$$ & alleviated its shortage with just the non-working US nurses in its own area if it had put the money to correcting the things we are saying are keeoping us away?

Peeps Mcarthur · Nov 14, 2001

Sharon,

Just type "African American Scholarship fund" into your web browser.

I didn't take a "shot" at them. I made a statement.

Since no other race is eligible for it, that would make it "exclusionary". There are also other race exclusionary scholarships and grants available. It's a fact.

I wonder if the salary of your phillipino mgr is in line with the national average? The cost of recruitment must be made up somewhere.

You say you work with hispanics. Were they all recruited form Mexico? I don't think that's likely, but that is the subject of my "tirade". Not ALL hispanics in the U.S. come from other countries obviousely. If they do they come here to work, they're not on vacation:rolleyes: and if they get your job your not going to get it back.

Do you want to know how I can know this?..........BECAUSE IT HAPPEND TO ME. You want to see what's instore for you if you support a bill to fund it? Be my guest, but before you wave Old Glory in support of taxpayer financed immigration look at just one blue collar industry in any border state. Your government already funds (with a subsidy to employers) the hiring of immigrants.

I'm not talking about U.S citizens that happen to be hispanic. I'm not talking about blacks that are fortunate enough to have thier own scholarship. The croations have thier own scholarship too, as well as every other race that can get away with it without it being a crime, or being slammed as a racist group.

Well except for one........can you guess? (I am citing exclusionary grants and scholarships only) All the other races can get any scholarship that the non-exclusionary race can, so they compete equaly(as it should be in the first place).......................That is unless you fall into a tax bracket that has to PAY the taxes that fund the scholarships in the first place.

Then you are not entitled to any. :confused:

That brings me to the conclusion that I am suffering reverse discrimination and will be "bitc* slapped" if I ever dare bring it up.

Sharon, I want to cover all of it with you, but I am pressed for time. In the meantime, would you look for some other posts on this same thread that seem to at least partially qualify what I'm saying? When I see your response I'll know you have.

Look forward to talking to you.

Brad,

Columbia, MD

Peeps Mcarthur · Nov 14, 2001

Of course, sir, it is not right and funnels money into areas that one can say do not deal with the interests of the host country.

Shandi,

By your own narrow definitions this makes you a "racist pig".

We share this same viewpoint.

Welcome to the club....................You can pick up your confederate flag at most any Walmart south of the Mason-Dixon line...................Enjoy your crow.

OzNurse69 · Nov 15, 2001

The problem is not a shortage of nurses in the US that will be "solved" by importing anyone from anywhere.

The problem is a world-wide shortage, leading to a "revolving door" syndrome. There is a publication over here called Nursing Careers and Allied health (website: ) which is now half full of ads for RN's to work OS - in the UK, USA, Ireland, Canada, Saudi, etc.

The answer? I DON'T KNOW!! When I find a solution, I'll let you all in on the secret, and we can all work in comfort, with adequate staffing levels.

-jt · Nov 15, 2001

>

Of course you do! Forget the gimmicks and forget throwing money away on trips abroad......

* INVEST IN THE WORKPLACE ENVIRONMENT!!

* USE THE MONEY TO IMPROVE WORKPLACE CONDITIONS

* BUY ERGONOMIC EQUIPMENT TO HELP WITH THE PHYSICAL LABOR OF THE JOB SO WE CAN STILL WORK THESE WEARY BONES AT THE BEDSIDE WELL PAST OUR 40's - and will WANT to

* PUT THE MONEY INTO INCREASING SALARIES, BENEFITS, AND OTHER COMPENSATION LIKE DIFFERENTIALS FOR ADDITIONAL EDUCATION, YEARS OF EXPERIENCE, SPECIALTY CERTIFICATION, ETC

* OFFER ATTRACTIVE PENSIONS/RETIREMENT PLANS THAT WOULD BE AN INCENTIVE TO KEEP WORKING & BUILDING ON

* FREE HEALTH BENEFITS FOR NURSES & THEIR FAMILIES

* FLEXIBLE SCHEDULES THAT FIT OUR LIFE'S OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES (I can also work 10am - 2pm on Tuesdays & Fridays but instead, am only working 12 hr weekends because the hospital says "we dont do that 4 hour thing" - theyd rather just work short-staffed all day, I guess)

* ABOLISH MANDATORY OVERTIME AND OTHER ABUSIVE MANAGEMENT PRACTICES

* RESPECT THE NURSING STAFF & RECOGNIZE THEM AS BEING JUST AS ESSENTIAL AS THE MEDICAL STAFF - instead of treating us like the manor's scullery maid

* INCLUDE NURSES IN MAKING THE DECISIONS AND POLICIES THAT AFFECT THEM, THEIR PRACTICE, AND PT CARE

* RECOGNIZE THAT STAFFING IS KEY TO QUALITY CARE AND PTS MUST COME BEFORE THE PROFIT MARGIN - AGREE TO SAFE STAFFING GUIDELINES/RATIOS & MAKE A COMMITTMENT TO MAINTAIN THEM

see how easy that was??? ; )

Peeps Mcarthur · Nov 15, 2001

JT,

You are so right, but wouldn't it be easier to just bring in some "nurses" from other countries and hang thier temporary visas over thier heads so they'll do ANYTHING that management wants? ...........................I had no idea this was going on. That hospital administration gig is some real cloak and dagger stuff.

Marijke · Nov 16, 2001

Lets face it we have a worldwide nursing shortage (I believe only Spain isn't having any problems at this time). Moving nurses from one country to another isn't going to solve the problem. We are going to have to come up with other solutions, since it is only going to get worse.

I have nothing against foreign trained RN's, I did my training in The Netherlands and was able to adjust just fine. I have also worked with several Philipino nurses, some great some bad. I understand the programs there aren't the quality they used to be, since they are trying to educate to many.

We need to focus on retention, drawing nurses back into the workforce, for example by offering better childcare. It must be so hard to work shiftwork with children, who is going to take care of them when you are working nights? I don't think there are many nightcares around, are there? Then last but not least is recruitment and expansion of the nursing programs. I am sure we would be able to train a lot more nurses if the hospitals would be allowed to be more involved (I am not talking about completely returning to the hospital operated schools). It would also help if it wouldn't be so expensive for potential nurses to go to school. I am sure there are many bright people in their twenties or thirties, who would love to go back to school, but can just not afford to do so. These people would be available to strenghten the RN workforce for about 30 years and also will bring life experience to the job, which is a very good background for a nurse I think.

Dave123 · Nov 16, 2001

I have worked with many many foreign nurses and doctors. The Federal Gov. hires them by the boat load. I recently worked will a couple from Russia. Some are good and some are really bad.

No matter what anyones says foreign nurses are hired because its cheap, dependable labor. I am mainly talking about nurses from Asia & Eastern Europe. Those nurses usually do not go back either, why would they want to?

Hospitals could get American nurses if they wanted to. They just do not want to pay what we're worth or treat us like the professionals we are. There is a large number of nurses that just do not practice nursing. They are doing something else.

As for the Canadian's and British; they have always been the best friends America has ever had. So I always welcome them with opens arms.

Lately I have begun to really question if Nursing is a "True" profession. No other profession has the problems we do because the others have atonomy and unity. It seems we are more of a science based technical trade. I think possibly a lot our problems are related in some form to that.

Just my opinion

Dave

franklin · Nov 16, 2001

I always thought that nursing is universal, u may be using modern tech. that others dont have, but we basically have the same goal-caring for people.

Sometimes, nurses in countries with poor pre-hospital care are expose to all types of cases everyday.Clinical skills and hands-on experience are develop at a rapid phase.

You may have the technology but we have the knowledge and skills to care of any kind of patient.We can take care of all patients even with limited resourses.

I think we should exchange places,and see who would adjust first!

I'm just trying to make a point here!

Peeps Mcarthur · Nov 16, 2001

Franklin,

Thank God someone who is directly affected by this bill has posted!

I'm sure that it's the same there as everywhere else. Like some recent posters have stated, you have some good, and some bad. I think you could find the same anywhere.

If you are skilled then fine, bring it on.............America is a land of opportunity.

Franklin, do you think I should pay for you to have that opportunity with my government taxes.

I will not attack you for your oppinion like some other posters on this thread:rolleyes: I really want to know what you think of this bill.

I'm sure there are others on this thread that would like to honestly discuss the issues with someone who is actually from the fillipines and as skilled as you are.

Brad,

Columbia, MD