IL Supreme Court Rules Only Nurses Can Testify on the Standard of Care for Nurses - page 6
from psna enewsletter: the american association of nurse attorneys (taana) recently announced that the illinois supreme court responded positively to taana's amicus brief submitted in the case of... Read More
Apr 10, '04Joined: Mar '04; Posts: 209; Likes: 3Quote from Peeps McarthurQuestion...are you a nurse?Clearly, nurses think patient care and the ability to perform it makes them experts. That makes everyone that passes the licensing an expert in patient care that supercedes a doctor's patient care. Some are better experts than others of course, but experts none the less.
If this is what you mean then yes, it does bother me. I'm sorry if it makes you angry, but just contemplate it for a minuet. Don't let your anger and resentment of doctors get in the way of the true meaning.
I'm an experienced critical care nurse, and am now House Administrator for a large hospital with the region's top cardiac program. Part of my job is dealing with doctors with every patient that comes to telemetry or critical care. One thing that I can definitely say is this; Many doctors are absolutely clueless concerning a nurse's scope of practice, or even exactly what we do during a 12 hour shift.
Every year, the role of nurses expands to include more and more areas, more procedures, and more duties. A family practice doctor won't have a clue about acute care nursing. A surgeon won't have a clue about home health nursing. They simply don't know our scope or standards of practice. If you want to know about nursing, you ask nurses. Does this not make sense to you?
As others have pointed out here, being a nurse doesn't make one an expert on nursing any more than being a bank teller makes one an expert on the banking industry. Nevertheless, experienced nurses in their settings are the acknowledged experts in the field.
We don't resent doctors. They are a part of the health care team. But we know their role, and we know our role. These roles are different, though they are interdependent. Believe me when I say that most doctors have no desire to have the line between our professions blurred. They are quite happy to show up, write orders, do any procedures that they need to do, and then get out of our way so that we can care for the patients.
The court is correct in that doctors are not qualified to testify as experts on the field of nursing.
The Mellow One
Apr 10, '04Joined: Mar '04; Posts: 209; Likes: 3Quote from fergus51Ditto. Start of any shift I get report, check the charts if I have any questions about the history that isn't on the Kardex, check orders, and look up all labs and write them down on my report sheet.We actually do read the whole schwack before our shift, including labs, etc.
This is stuff ya just gotta know before giving out meds and doing focused assessments.
The Mellow One
Apr 10, '04Occupation: Worrywort Joined: Jul '01; Posts: 1,349; Likes: 16All of you that took the time to respond and made an effort to keep bitterness and resentment out of your posts.............thank you.
Ya know, I actualy started to change my mindset about this but everything I write is treated as poison with no redeeming value whatsoever.
This is not how to get people to see your point. It's very difficult to stay objective when one is being kicked in the ankles constantly.
To the people with any objective discussion, please understand my reasons for not responding further.
Apr 10, '04Occupation: Nurse Educator Specialty: Nursing Education and Critical Care. ; From: US ; Joined: Mar '03; Posts: 2,112; Likes: 149Peeps - some of the opinion that you posted is contrary to what many nurses on this board believe. From my persepctive, as I read your posts, I get the feeling that you do not believe that nursing should evolve. This is also contrary to what many nurses on this forum believe. If you truly believe that nurses should remain quiet and in the background as health care evolves, then you are certainly going to get many arguments to your point.
I believe that nursing needs to evolve in order to survive. Let me ask you a question .... if you were on trial for negligence as a registered nurse. Would you prefer they call a physician to testify on your behalf (as an expert to nursing standards and scope of practice) or would you prefer an experienced registered nurse be called? Please detail your response as I am very interested in understanding your frame of reference here. It is not that I want to change your mind and I am sure that you do not want to change my mind .... all I am seeking is to better understand your poisition with an open mind. Please help me do this.
Apr 10, '04Occupation: Worrywort Joined: Jul '01; Posts: 1,349; Likes: 16I appreciate the temperance in your post Rnpatl, however, it's just not possible.
I also see something that you might think about working on. You've telegraphed a punch with the comment about wanting to keep nursing from evolving. It's a very good multipurpose hot-button that's sure to get you many positive posts, but you must never use a hot-button topic to open with unless you have a direct quote. You can see the same mistakes being made by the posters that opened with comments trying to paint me as some kind of antinurse.
Some other items of interest, if I may.
You used a generality in your very first sentence. That starts to deflate the credibility of your thesis.
Raising a question is very good, but perhapse that should have been your entire post as it would demand a question in return and get the argument going in the direction you prefer.
At the end there, well, you got a little needy. I can't imagine anybody here that really wants to understand my position for the sake of fulfillment. I know why you want me to make statements about my position. Don't get ahead of yourself.
You'll do well.
Apr 10, '04Occupation: Nurse Educator Specialty: Nursing Education and Critical Care. ; From: US ; Joined: Mar '03; Posts: 2,112; Likes: 149Peeps - I am impressed with your ability to disect a sentence. I will give you that. In relationship to quotes, I guess I could go back and extrapolate a number of your posts that would lead the reader to believe that you were certainly not supportive of this ruling. However, that would waste your time as well as the remainder of the readers to this thread.
It is my choice whether I get into an intellectual debate with you over this topic. Quite frankly, the ruling has been made, the nurses won and there really is nothing futher to debate, except your feelings and opinions on the matter, and you have certainly made these clear. It is now my choice to end my discussions with you on this topic and on this thread.
Thanks for your time.
Apr 11, '04Occupation: Haemetology nurse Specialty: Oncology/Haemetology/HIV ; From: US ; Joined: May '02; Posts: 7,040; Likes: 7,483Some minds are merely closed....
Others are welded shut so that not even a few pounds of C4 could blast them open...
Apr 11, '04Joined: Mar '04; Posts: 209; Likes: 3Quote from Peeps McarthurA condescending tone without actually addressing the statements made is a common debate tactic, albiet an ineffective one. Pardon me if I point out the fact that this has been common in your posts, and was especially evident in the silliness that you posted to rnpatl when discerning her emotional state based on her stance on a topic and semantics. It is a debate tactic that does not endear you with those with whom you disagree, nor does it foster productive dialogue.At the end there, well, you got a little needy. I can't imagine anybody here that really wants to understand my position for the sake of fulfillment. I know why you want me to make statements about my position. Don't get ahead of yourself.
You'll do well.
The Mellow One