IL Supreme Court Rules Only Nurses Can Testify on the Standard of Care for Nurses

Nurses Activism

Published

from psna enewsletter:

the american association of nurse attorneys (taana) recently announced that the illinois supreme court responded positively to taana's amicus brief submitted in the case of sullivan v. edward hosp., no. 95409, 2004 wl 228956 (ill. feb. 5, 2004) when the court issued its decision on february 5, 2004. citing extensively to the taana brief and also to the authorities cited by taana, the court ruled that only a nurse is qualified to offer opinion evidence as to the nursing standard of care.

the brief was drafted after almost two years of research by members of the taana litigation section and was written by karen butler, chair of the litigation section. the chicago chapter of taana, particularly, leatrice schmidt, reviewed and submitted the brief. the issue, in brief, was whether a physician, who is not a nurse, should be permitted to offer expert opinion evidence, as to the standard of care for nurses. the taana position is that nurses and only nurses have the authority and responsibility to define the scope and practice of nursing. the illinois trial lawyers also submitted an amicus brief arguing that physicians can do anything a nurse can do and, therefore, a physician can always testify as to the standard of care for nurses. for a copy of the decision, contact the taana national office.http://www.taana.org/

Unless the "semantics" themselves are completely off track. You lost me with your discussions on who has the authority over patient care, territorial rights, medical hierarchy, nurses "blindly gobbling up responsibility," and how we are alienating ourselves further from the medical profession. Who gives a crap! It's as simple as nurses just wanting to speak on our own behalf.

Is it the fact that the words "nurse" and "expert" appeared in the same sentence that bothered you?

It is the fact that the words "nurse" and "expert" appeared in the same sentence that bothered you?

Clearly, nurses think patient care and the ability to perform it makes them experts. That makes everyone that passes the licensing an expert in patient care that supercedes a doctor's patient care. Some are better experts than others of course, but experts none the less.

If this is what you mean then yes, it does bother me. I'm sorry if it makes you angry, but just contemplate it for a minuet. Don't let your anger and resentment of doctors get in the way of the true meaning.

If you still feel that way, I have nothing else I can say to try to present my point of view in an acceptable way.

There is no need to respond if you still feel angry. I wouldn't hold it against any of you. I was really just presenting what I thought was a unique perspective.

I can see why it would be so unique here :p

Specializes in ED staff.

Both specialties, nursing and medicine are interdependent. They can't do their job without us (for sure), we can't do our job (legally) without them. If someone is to critique my work, my ablilties, then I want the person that knows the most about my profession, that person is not a doctor. I will not be called to testify about a surgeon's capabilites, I might be called to testify to say if he returned calls in a timely manner but I would never be called to say that his technique was superior to another doctor's. This is really preposterous... humans have pets, lets say you have a dog, you've had the same dog for 10 years. But who knows more about being a dog? Do you, or does the dog?

Peeps, I don't think you'll ever understand. You seem to see nursing as just a group of poorly educated people who hate doctors and want to steal their jobs or something.

This ruling doesn't mean that a new grad nurse would testify as an expert, not any more likely than a newly qualified doctor being asked to testify as an expert (though I would say a new nurse still knows more about working as a nurse than any other professional). It just means that a nurse is the one who knows how to be a nurse. When you consider that nurses are judged based on what "a prudent nurse would do," how does it make any sense to ask a doctor? A doctor isn't a prudent nurse. She observes nurses, but never works as one. Why wouldn't a nurse be the one to ask about nursing? If you can explain that to me I'd appreciate it.

I have no anger and resentment towards doctors. Again, you missed the point. I give up!

Clearly, nurses think patient care and the ability to perform it makes them experts. That makes everyone that passes the licensing an expert in patient care that supercedes a doctor's patient care. Some are better experts than others of course, but experts none the less.

If this is what you mean then yes, it does bother me. I'm sorry if it makes you angry, but just contemplate it for a minuet. Don't let your anger and resentment of doctors get in the way of the true meaning.

Question...are you a nurse?

I'm an experienced critical care nurse, and am now House Administrator for a large hospital with the region's top cardiac program. Part of my job is dealing with doctors with every patient that comes to telemetry or critical care. One thing that I can definitely say is this; Many doctors are absolutely clueless concerning a nurse's scope of practice, or even exactly what we do during a 12 hour shift.

Every year, the role of nurses expands to include more and more areas, more procedures, and more duties. A family practice doctor won't have a clue about acute care nursing. A surgeon won't have a clue about home health nursing. They simply don't know our scope or standards of practice. If you want to know about nursing, you ask nurses. Does this not make sense to you?

As others have pointed out here, being a nurse doesn't make one an expert on nursing any more than being a bank teller makes one an expert on the banking industry. Nevertheless, experienced nurses in their settings are the acknowledged experts in the field.

We don't resent doctors. They are a part of the health care team. But we know their role, and we know our role. These roles are different, though they are interdependent. Believe me when I say that most doctors have no desire to have the line between our professions blurred. They are quite happy to show up, write orders, do any procedures that they need to do, and then get out of our way so that we can care for the patients.

The court is correct in that doctors are not qualified to testify as experts on the field of nursing.

Be well...

The Mellow One

We actually do read the whole schwack before our shift, including labs, etc.

Ditto. Start of any shift I get report, check the charts if I have any questions about the history that isn't on the Kardex, check orders, and look up all labs and write them down on my report sheet.

This is stuff ya just gotta know before giving out meds and doing focused assessments.

Be well...

The Mellow One

All of you that took the time to respond and made an effort to keep bitterness and resentment out of your posts.............thank you.

Ya know, I actualy started to change my mindset about this but everything I write is treated as poison with no redeeming value whatsoever.

This is not how to get people to see your point. It's very difficult to stay objective when one is being kicked in the ankles constantly.

To the people with any objective discussion, please understand my reasons for not responding further.

Specializes in Nursing Education.

Peeps - some of the opinion that you posted is contrary to what many nurses on this board believe. From my persepctive, as I read your posts, I get the feeling that you do not believe that nursing should evolve. This is also contrary to what many nurses on this forum believe. If you truly believe that nurses should remain quiet and in the background as health care evolves, then you are certainly going to get many arguments to your point.

I believe that nursing needs to evolve in order to survive. Let me ask you a question .... if you were on trial for negligence as a registered nurse. Would you prefer they call a physician to testify on your behalf (as an expert to nursing standards and scope of practice) or would you prefer an experienced registered nurse be called? Please detail your response as I am very interested in understanding your frame of reference here. It is not that I want to change your mind and I am sure that you do not want to change my mind .... all I am seeking is to better understand your poisition with an open mind. Please help me do this. :smokin:

Thanks.

I appreciate the temperance in your post Rnpatl, however, it's just not possible.

I also see something that you might think about working on. You've telegraphed a punch with the comment about wanting to keep nursing from evolving. It's a very good multipurpose hot-button that's sure to get you many positive posts, but you must never use a hot-button topic to open with unless you have a direct quote. You can see the same mistakes being made by the posters that opened with comments trying to paint me as some kind of antinurse.

Some other items of interest, if I may.

You used a generality in your very first sentence. That starts to deflate the credibility of your thesis.

Raising a question is very good, but perhapse that should have been your entire post as it would demand a question in return and get the argument going in the direction you prefer.

At the end there, well, you got a little needy. I can't imagine anybody here that really wants to understand my position for the sake of fulfillment. I know why you want me to make statements about my position. Don't get ahead of yourself.

You'll do well.

Specializes in Nursing Education.

Peeps - I am impressed with your ability to disect a sentence. I will give you that. In relationship to quotes, I guess I could go back and extrapolate a number of your posts that would lead the reader to believe that you were certainly not supportive of this ruling. However, that would waste your time as well as the remainder of the readers to this thread.

It is my choice whether I get into an intellectual debate with you over this topic. Quite frankly, the ruling has been made, the nurses won and there really is nothing futher to debate, except your feelings and opinions on the matter, and you have certainly made these clear. It is now my choice to end my discussions with you on this topic and on this thread.

Thanks for your time.

Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.

Some minds are merely closed....

Others are welded shut so that not even a few pounds of C4 could blast them open...

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