why do nurses hate medics?

[loboracer]

Not to offend anyone, but I have been in this game for over 12 yrs. I have worked with sone very good nurses but I have found that the majority of ER nurses are quite hateful to paramedics. It seems to be the younger nurses too. With the most current survey showing paramedics making an average of 14.xx per hr and nurses making 30.xx and hr... you would think it would be the medics with the problem. I am not talking about low educated medics either. In this area medics have ACLS, PALS, NALS, PHTLS, ABLS, proficient in 12 and 15 lead interpretation, etc.. We have medics that work in the ER not as techs but actually are assigned rooms as RNs. Can do everything as an RN except hang blood although you are trained in it. Medics have to choose the med they give in the field based on assessment not by dr. Order on the computer. Some opinions from nurses? I am not wanting a war here just enlightenment.

[BR157]

Wow. I love a good joust! I didn't deny anything. While there probably some INDIVIDUAL, anti-nurse comments, overall EMTLIFE is not anti-nurse. I listed several of the sub topics on that forum, and most have nothing to do with nursing, i.e., Military/Wilderness, NREMT, etc. Commenting specifically on the NREMT Transition issue, you make a comment "Most of the topics about NREMT transitioning are about how to get a certificate in their state because they don't know the process probably because their quick cert poor excuse of a school didn't tell them." You again demonstrate ignorance of the overall situation. There are several states that do not recognize or support NREMT. So when the change came out mandating completion of a STATE-APPROVED transition course, many people were left hanging in the breeze. Didn't matter whether they were an NREMT-B, I, or P. I am in Florida, one of those states. As a private military contractor, not affiliated with a local EMS agency I didn't have a FL EMT-B license, I contacted NREMT. They had no answers other than completing a state-approved transition course. Remember the phrase "Catch-22"? The government required a certification, and NREMT worked for the government. My company has a global footprint. If you work overseas, countries only accept NREMT, not a state certification. So a lot of people had no definitive answer on how to keep their certification. So the blanket "quick cert school comment" is not apropos. Nowadays, EMTs go to a college and get a state and NREMT cert. And then they move on to another state or the government. So if they don't get the new state's cert, all they have is there NREMT. I got mine through the Bureau of Medicine and Surgery (BUMED), US Navy. Hardly a "quick cert school". I don't know your background as ALLNURSES doesn't give a detailed profile like other forums do, but I must say, you do a good job at showing you a$$ in an ignorant sort of way.

This is not really the forum to help you figure out all of your questions about the NREMT and your EMT-B cert. Consider yourself very lucky to get a job outside of the US with only an EMT-B certificate.

I will take a few minutes to explain a few things about EMS certs.

The NREMT is only a certifying agency. It is not a government agency. It does not give you a license. It is only contracted by a state to use its exams. The NREMT does not handle the licensing for each state. You must contact each state for the correct process. Florida does accept the NREMT at the basic level and that is now their certifying exam. I won't go into the Paramedic level since that is not your question. I will tell you that Florida does not have EMT-I. At least 46 states now use the NREMT for their certifying exam. A couple of others will use it for reciprocity. This information is available on the NREMT website. The website also has the link for the state EMS websites.

If you move to another state, even with the NREMT you will still need to apply for a license in that state. Just about every health care profession, including nursing, is like that. The NREMT is not a national license.

A good school will explain the process in their state to become certified and licensed. The students should not have to turn to an anonymous forum to get answers for something as important as this. Why would you believe it is ignorant for a school to provide this service to its students?

Most of the questions on EMTLIFE are about California which has a county certifying system which can get confusing. That still doesn't excuse the schools from informing the students about the process even in the 2 -3 week boot camps.

EMT is still taught at fire departments, ambulance companies and tech schools. The places where EMTs are used such as for rural volunteer ambulances, which were mentioned earlier, may not have a college for hundreds of miles which offer EMS certificates.

A Paramedic can get a two year degree but at this time only two states require that for licensing. Hopefully more states will require this in the future. The EMT-B should only be a first aid card for a first responder. The AEMT should be the minimum to work on an ambulance.

[BR157]

Are you catching the flame spray about EMTLIFE from BR157? He mentioned both of us.

I would rather not have my name, even if just a screen name, associated with EMTLIFE.

RN Help | EMTLife

Looks like you are trying to hijack that nursing thread for your own agenda with akulahawk just as you have done here.

Copy and paste your EMT-B concerns form post #106 to a new topic on EMTLIFE.

[guest769224]

Good Fire Departments pay well over $100,000 for their Paramedics.

Would you mind sharing where this takes place?

[akulahawkRN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

This is not really the forum to help you figure out all of your questions about the NREMT and your EMT-B cert. Consider yourself very lucky to get a job outside of the US with only an EMT-B certificate.

I will take a few minutes to explain a few things about EMS certs.

The NREMT is only a certifying agency. It is not a government agency. It does not give you a license. It is only contracted by a state to use its exams. The NREMT does not handle the licensing for each state. You must contact each state for the correct process. Florida does accept the NREMT at the basic level and that is now their certifying exam. I won't go into the Paramedic level since that is not your question. I will tell you that Florida does not have EMT-I. At least 46 states now use the NREMT for their certifying exam. A couple of others will use it for reciprocity. This information is available on the NREMT website. The website also has the link for the state EMS websites.

The exact same thing is true about the NCSBN. They, just like the NREMT, are responsible for a certifying examination. Both also contract with Pearson Vue to actually proctor the exams. As you state, most states use the NREMT exams for initial certification, and most require continued certification through the NREMT to maintain the state license/certification.

If you move to another state, even with the NREMT you will still need to apply for a license in that state. Just about every health care profession, including nursing, is like that. The NREMT is not a national license.

Neither is the NCLEX.

A good school will explain the process in their state to become certified and licensed. The students should not have to turn to an anonymous forum to get answers for something as important as this. Why would you believe it is ignorant for a school to provide this service to its students?

Yet we get the same questions here. There are also nursing schools that do not assist their students through the state license/certification process.

Most of the questions on EMTLIFE are about California which has a county certifying system which can get confusing. That still doesn't excuse the schools from informing the students about the process even in the 2 -3 week boot camps.

Really, most of the questions on EMTLife are about a single state's certification process? Funny, I've been on there for a very long time and I distinctly do not recall seeing more than a very few questions about this, let alone a single state's certifying process. Certainly no more frequently than I see here on this forum about nursing licenses.

EMT is still taught at fire departments, ambulance companies and tech schools. The places where EMTs are used such as for rural volunteer ambulances, which were mentioned earlier, may not have a college for hundreds of miles which offer EMS certificates.

CNA can be taught by employers... hardly any different than your statement above. Neither certification requires any prior learning.

A Paramedic can get a two year degree but at this time only two states require that for licensing. Hopefully more states will require this in the future. The EMT-B should only be a first aid card for a first responder. The AEMT should be the minimum to work on an ambulance.

I would prefer to leave the EMT stuff as it is. I would like to see the AEMT become a 2 year Degree with a scope of practice somewhere between the typical AEMT and typical Paramedic now. I'd like to see Paramedic become a 4 year Degree, modeled more along the lines of a Sports Med program. The Scope of Practice could then be far more open than it is now as their knowledge base would easily approach (and later blend with) a PA program. However, that would also be very threatening to some in Nursing. I don't see such an educational leap occurring any time soon, unfortunately.

[akulahawkRN, ADN, RN, EMT-P]

Would you mind sharing where this takes place?

I would also like to know which Fire Departments pay well over $100,000 for single role Paramedics, and I'm asking about salary alone. I know that benefits can skew the numbers by quite a bit. I know of some Fire Fighter/Paramedics that get that much if they work a LOT of overtime. In my local area, as I'm a Paramedic with a Bachelor's Degree, my base pay for any of the local departments would be in the neighborhood of $65k.

So, BR157, I'd like to know where this is possible on base pay alone for a single role Paramedic.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Kick them out"? That should set the tone for these future attendings and their attitude towards nurses.

Yes, unfortunately a while back I had a foreign trained resident for whom English was a 2nd or third language who kept ordering Ativan when atropine would have been the correct drug in that situation. When he got excited and started to yell at everybody he became a liability to the code team rather than an asset and I had to ask him to leave the room.

Your attitude and treatment of others could eventually catch up to you and your fellow RRT RNs will be dragged down also. The autonomy and skills you enjoy now are a privilege and can easily be reassigned by your Medical Director who happens to be a "Doctor"

You don't know anything about my attitude towards others. My whole job is about facilitating collaboration. Our autonomy is now part of hospital, actually health system, policy and not entirely subject to the whims of our medical director. That said our medical director is our best and strongest advocate. We have collected some very good data on our service. For example we have cut the ICU bounce back rate in half. This has resulted on the physicians, in particular surgeons, becoming very active advocates for the rapid response team.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

All of your posts here read like a script from House. You seem to be the only one who can do anything. There are no other nurses, radiology techs, lab, respiratory and doctors are useless according to you.

(chuckle, chuckle) Nothing I have said would indicate or support what you claim above.

Since you stated your community has a volunteer EMS, you must be either in New Jersey or in a tiny critical access hospital with rural medicine residents.

New Jersey? (shudder in horror!). Not only no but hell no. Yes my community has a volunteer EMS and fire department. Yes I do work in a tiny, rural critical access hospital, but that is only a casual position and I work ER when I am there. My main job (RRT) is in a much larger publicaly hospital with a variety of residents from different specialties.

[PMFB-RN, RN]

Aren't you exploiting EMTs and Paramedics by paying them ZERO?

I don't feel exploited and we don't get paid zero. We get paid while actually on runs. Most of us do it because we want to give back to our communities and let's face it, it's fun.

Why should a community pay for services if someone is always giving it away? If you have that many high paid professionals in your community, you should be able to support paid ALS EMS.

Not many small rural towns with a population of about 800 can afford full time EMS.

I did clearly state FIRE DEPARTMENT and COUNTY EMS when typing that salary.

Yes I am aware of that. But you said that in response to my comment about medics working in hospitals so I don't know why you would tell us about what fire department medics get paid when we were discussing medics in hospitals.

But, I also stated reasons why an EMT or Paramedic might choose to work in a hospital. Private ambulance companies pay just above minimum wage due to the way insurance reimbursement works. Many of the transports they do are uninsured. Some people have families, old injuries or age working against them. Working 24 hours shifts or even 48 or 72 hours straight with very little sleep sitting in a truck for most of those hours can be very tiring. That Paramedic who brought a patient to the hospital at 0700 might also bring several more throughout the 24 hour shift with no sleep. There are just so many Fire Department jobs to get.

That is the nature of EMS work. I considering it a young person's game. I assume anyone choose to go into the field would be aware of that and take it into account when choosing a career.

To work only 36 or 40 hours a week with 2x the pay in a hospital might just be a good option.

2X the money? You mean 2X the $100K you claim fire department medics get paid, or 2X the minimum wage you claim private ambulance companies pay?

I understand why a medic might wish to work in a hospital. I also understand why a hospital might prefer to pay a medic much less to do a nurse's work. I think it's naive for you to not see how nurses would resent that.

You don't really seem to understand the whole insurance thing

I understand juts fine. I don't see the relevance to the discussion.

and how a profession is reimbursed or even recognized as a profession. The Paramedic is very new compared to RNs but I think EMS has made greater advances than nurses in some ways. It took nursing over 100 years to make a 2 year degree the standard entry and to be accepted as a profession. Nursing hasn't raised its entry requirement in over 50 years. The Paramedic came to be about 50 years ago and the profession is on the rise quickly now. It won't be long before it is recognized as a profession. The Community Paramedic already is in several states

Good for you/us. I just don't want cheaper paramedics being used against nurses.

[Lunah, MSN, RN]

This thread is in serious danger of going off the rails. Keep it on track and keep the personal jabs out of it, or I will close it down. Thanks.

[BR157]

The exact same thing is true about the NCSBN. They, just like the NREMT, are responsible for a certifying examination. Both also contract with Pearson Vue to actually proctor the exams. As you state, most states use the NREMT exams for initial certification, and most require continued certification through the NREMT to maintain the state license/certification.

Neither is the NCLEX.Yet we get the same questions here. There are also nursing schools that do not assist their students through the state license/certification process. Really, most of the questions on EMTLife are about a single state's certification process? Funny, I've been on there for a very long time and I distinctly do not recall seeing more than a very few questions about this, let alone a single state's certifying process. Certainly no more frequently than I see here on this forum about nursing licenses.

CNA can be taught by employers... hardly any different than your statement above. Neither certification requires any prior learning.

I would prefer to leave the EMT stuff as it is. I would like to see the AEMT become a 2 year Degree with a scope of practice somewhere between the typical AEMT and typical Paramedic now. I'd like to see Paramedic become a 4 year Degree, modeled more along the lines of a Sports Med program. The Scope of Practice could then be far more open than it is now as their knowledge base would easily approach (and later blend with) a PA program. However, that would also be very threatening to some in Nursing. I don't see such an educational leap occurring any time soon, unfortunately.

I never said anything about he NCLEX. I was trying to help out amjclean EMT-B with his frustrations about the NREMT and state licensing.

What exactly is the point of your post? Is it to spur nurses into debating which license is better than the other? So what if entry level certs like EMT and CNA can be taught by employers? I have no problem with that for either cert. I am not an expert on the NCLEX but I do know nurses use it as a credentialing exam to get state licensed. I believe that process is common in many different health care licenses. EMS has a few kinks in its certifications but that is not the discussion here.

On the EMT forum, if you just use the search feature you will see all the questions about California and even a lot of comments about the California way of doing things. The intubation discussion is a good example of that since California's intubation rates are part of some studies.

Maybe if you lived in a state where EMS has raised its education you might see all is possible. California is not a great example for EMS with its county by county stuff and private boot camps to certify people quickly. It is easy to see why people get confused by the process but I still think the schools should be the go to place for students to get the information to be directed to their state licensing site or county if in California.

I also will say I was not the first person to bring EMTLIFE into the discussion. I also was not the first

[Lunah, MSN, RN]

After reviewing reports this morning (Happy New Year! Lol), I am closing this thread. I think the original topic has been addressed in full, and the spin-off is getting stale. Thanks, peeps.