14 Nurses Fired and 9 disciplined in Kentucky

angelbear · Oct 14, 2003

I am having a hard time buying all this at face value. Hard to believe so many would be guilty of this knowing they were doing something wrong. I once straight cathed a pt because no void for 3 shifts. I was under the impression that this was facility policy(and should be) at anyrate I fortunately sent it for a c&s. The next day one of our NM's called to tell me that NO this was not a standing order or facility protocal though they are working on it. She told me not to worry that since I had sent it for c&s that it would be covered as we do have standing orders to obtain cath specimens if we suspect UTI she said I was ok since I sent it for the c/s as that would indicate suspicion of UTI. Admittedly I should have looked it up my bad for assuming it was protocal. My point is I can see how this could happen as I was not the only nurse who was under the impression that we could straight cath for prolonged no void. It would make sense to have a S.O. for this just as it would make sense to have a standing order for the diprovan. I think they were just looking to get rid of these nurses and this was just convienient.

Retired R.N. · Oct 17, 2003

>I work with several abusive groups of docs who are coercive, >abusive and sneaky. ...

>

>Are some of the timid nurses afraid to call them? YES. Because >these are the docs who intimidate and complain and make lives >miserable.....

>

>But...administration cowtows to them.

Could it be that the administrators are reluctant to antagonize the doctors who decide which hospital to which their patients will be admitted? Don't ever think that a hospital wants to lose money simply because a doctor gets agitated over a call during the night!

In addition, could this Kentucky situation be another one like the one I experienced as a patient where each phone call that was made on my behalf by the nursing staff was billed to me by the doctor at $100 per call?

Patients who are admitted through the ER frequently have no choice in the hospital or the doctors assigned to them. If the administrators were aware that doctors who did not wish to be called during the night were in the habit of "punishing" the patient by extra charges for phone calls, I can understand why they were not too eager to call those arrogant physicians during the night.

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Oct 17, 2003

Originally posted by sbic56
Definitely something fishy going on here and I think this almost undetectable sentence in the article may be the crux of it all. I think some of the nurses involved wanted the union in. Healthcare facilities will go to extremes to keep the union out. I'm willing to bet the 9 nurses disciplined weren't for the union while the 14 who were fired were thought to be for the union coming in.

(I can't believe I missed this thread before now!) Sbic- you hit the nail on the head: http://members.aol.com/nursenpo/ Go here to see Norton's long-time attitude toward those who are involved with the NPO and their efforts to get these hospitals unionized.

I worked quite a few agency shifts at one of their hospitals before putting them on my DNR list a couple of years ago. They have recently lost a good number of experienced nurses who have come to work at my hospital. They have a long time reputation for requiring too much of their nurses, and then turning on them when they feel the heat on their own backs regarding their "gray area policies." They don't back up their nurses regarding things like getting standing orders for things like Diprovan, and look who gets the shaft. They also don't back up their nurses regarding how they are treated by the doctors- and they are treated like crap by the doctors. I personally have witnessed a few of these doctors (at one of their hospitals) cursing at staff, throwing charts around, throwing tantrums, etc. And a lot of the nurses just stand there and take it. It's like it's just all in a days work. Why? Because the doctors are allowed to do it without consequence, and as far as I could tell, there was no procedure in place to advocate for those nurses or their patients when this happened. It's pretty sad when you feel like you have to advocate for your patients against their own doctors or the hospital and their is nowhere to turn. I'm not surprised the nurses are intimidated by the doctors there, because nobody backs them up. No wonder the experienced nurses there are trying to get unionized. Norton's hospitals (Audobon, Suburban, etc) have a very checkered past regarding mandatory OT, union- busting, and firing of experienced nurses while hiring new nurses en mass without proper orientation and expecting them to float to all of their hospitals- not just other floors (under the guise of having their own "agency.") They expect their nurses to go with the status quo, and when things look shaky for them, they blame it on the nurses. This has been going on for years. This is their reputation here among nurses.

They have some very good experienced nurses left, but they don't want to keep them. In fact, they do everything they can to get rid of them because they are "trouble makers." Because those nurses know better.

I have heard about and seen so many ruthless tactics by this hospital corporation that I would never, ever work for them- ever. My agency experience with them was enough for me. When you are agency and you see how a hospital treats their own staff (not just the agency personnel), you get big fat red flags. And they had them everywhere.

NicuNsg · Oct 17, 2003

And NicuNsg...some patients on vents desperately NEED to be sedated...they use all their energy fighting...and none healing or breathing effectively ....please don't judge so quickly. [/b]

I know that pts on vents need sedation to rest! We teach our families that the vents allow their loved ones' lung to rest and heal!!!????

I am not judging the nurses per say (my mom had a majority of great nurses who looked out for her well-being), just thought it was interesting in my mothers case and the troubles we had with some of the doc's. My mom has reactions to MS and we tried along with a few of the nurses to get the doc's to change the order, which is something I didn't go into all the way and won't. What I was saying was wow thats is scarey my mom was hospitalized there, was just released. Not a hospital that typically gets alot of notarioty. How would you feel if you lived away from a family member, they were hospitalized in critical condition...and then you hear about an article like this? My mom's doing great, it is just scarey to hear about. Sorry, thought I needed to reply to that. I know what vents are actually used for.

deLadyPanther · Oct 17, 2003

Nurse got fired because she didn't want to wake the doctor. Perhaps since she/he is the one making the big bucks she/he can now pay the nurse's living expenses ... duh!!!

hsantamo · Oct 17, 2003

When I went to nursing school we learned that even to give a tylenol without an order was illegal because it was practicing medicine with out a license. Doctors are paid to be on call and should be woken up. They are aware of all this when the start their own practices. Any doctor that does not write as standard order for sedation for a patient on a respirator deserves to be woken up. If they continually got these calls then maybe it would make them think about it. I would never put my career at risk because I was afraid to call a doctor.

sbic56, BSN, RN · Oct 17, 2003

lgflamini

Aha! So you know firsthand! I had a very strong feeling this was about a whole lot more than "giving meds without and order". I have been in nursing long enough to see the games that administration plays and as you point out, it has absolultely nothing to do with assuring good patient care. Sickening, isn't it?

BBFRN, BSN, PhD · Oct 17, 2003

Originally posted by sbic56
lgflamini

Aha! So you know firsthand! I had a very strong feeling this was about a whole lot more than "giving meds without and order". I have been in nursing long enough to see the games that administration plays and as you point out, it has absolultely nothing to do with assuring good patient care. Sickening, isn't it?

Sickening and unfortunately, very predictable considering their history. If you want to know what I'm talking about, go to the link I posted in my previous post. there is all kinds of info on them and what kind of tactics they have used in the past. They got sued for this before. You would think they'd learn their lesson.

sbic56, BSN, RN · Oct 18, 2003

Originally posted by lgflamini
Sickening and unfortunately, very predictable considering their history. If you want to know what I'm talking about, go to the link I posted in my previous post. there is all kinds of info on them and what kind of tactics they have used in the past. They got sued for this before. You would think they'd learn their lesson.

Yes..I read it. It's worth the risk of being sued apparently. Lots of money to be made.

mattsmom81 · Oct 18, 2003

Originally posted by sbic56
Yes..I read it. It's worth the risk of being sued apparently. Lots of money to be made.

So true...and there's always nurses to scapegoat if the shyt hits the fan. :stone

sbic56, BSN, RN · Oct 18, 2003

Originally posted by mattsmom81
So true...and there's always nurses to scapegoat if the shyt hits the fan. :stone

You know it. And no use in trying to be the perfect nurse. If they want to use you for the goat, they'll find a way.

GI Issue Nurse · Oct 19, 2003

I called a physician for an End Stage Renal Disease (ESRD) patient that had an extremely elevated blood glucose and had been on Nipride for hypertensive crisis. This doc had written a transfer to the floor order as well as a D/C Nipride order. He had the nerve to call me "Officious *****" to one of my peers because I would not restart the Nipride w/o an order. The transfer to the floor was delayed due to nursing judgement and when the patient's BP shot back up I made the call and was royally chewed out. Guess what...the doctor has a rep for being an @#$%^ when called unless he is drunk, or at least has had several drinks. I wrote him up and of course nothing happened to him. I worked at the time for a not-for-profit hospital that had a policy in place to write up fellow employees and physicians who were abusive. This policy has been in effect for a while and it has really made a difference in how the nursing staff is treated since we rarely take grief from other staff members as we now have a recourse for notifying our superiors when we have a conflict with someone.

In regards to the nurse with the 18 yrs experience...she would have been eligible to retire soon and if you can get out of paying a pension because they get fired for a "valid" reason then you don't have to pay for the pension benefits.