Nurses, Clients and Power

Nurses General Nursing

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There's a discussion going on at a bioethics blog dealing with patient modesty. The discussion went a little offcourse with an interesting subtopic called "Nurses, Clients and Power". I wonder if you agree if the types of power listed are used by nurses when dealing with patients.

The Powers:

1. Overt Power --Nurses "openly giving orders or making decisions without consulting patients." There was often a shared assumption between patient and nurse that the nurse will be in control. "Thus we can see that overt power is not simply a matter of making people do things against their will. In many cases, patients interpreted nurses' open power as legitimate, and willingly went along with it."

2. Persuasion -- Nurses "cajoling patients to do things that they originally did not want to do. This often involved negotiation. The "nurses' position within the organization of health care gives them a pegged position in the negotiating process."

3. Controlling the Agenda -- This was the most common method nurses used. In this case "the exercise of power is very subtle and comes in the form of manipulation." The nurse appeared to give the patient a choice by asking questions, but the questions were constructed in such a way that, "in reality, patients have little choice but to go along with" the agenda.

4. Terms of Endearment -- This was the most subtle form of power nurses used -- based upon "displays of affection." In other words, treating the patients similar to the way a parent would treat a child.

The study is not a definitive example of how power works within health care -- but as just one example of how power can be studied within the hospital culture.

The source material:

Chapter 8 "Nurses, Clients and Power" by Martin Johnson, in the book Sociology as Applied to Nursing & Health Care by Mary Birchenall et. al.

A. Hewison (1995) "Nurses power in interactions with patients" in the Journal of Advanced Nursing 21: 75-82. The nurses studied were working with the elderly.

The discussion was here:

blog topic: Patient Modesty and Caregivers

http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2009/03/patient-modesty-volume-12.html#c6253700032823945852

poster's entire comment:

http://bioethicsdiscussion.blogspot.com/2009/03/patient-modesty-volume-12.html#comments

Specializes in CT stepdown, hospice, psych, ortho.

I respectfully disagree with you.

My post was not to say that I am one of those nurses that insists on providing care or that I'm not compassionate. It was just talking about the reality of the situation.

By the way, I do agree that we should respect pt autonomy as much as feasible in the hospital seting. I don't force my services on anyone (and never would put in a foley or whatever if the pt was uncomfortable but I WOULD say "Mr XX I'll be happy to have a male nurse come and perform this for you, I just want you to know that we have nobody available right now so you will have to wait until a male nurse can come up from another floor. Are you ok with waiting?" and then I call someone. I explain very nicely why I can't always operate on their schedule, and I do my best to accomodate requests. It isn't always possible and I am nice about it, even when they are being very demanding.

No, it is not the patient's fault that I have 7 patients. However, I am only one person. If they don't want to do x or y right now, when they DO want to do it, if I am tied up, they have to wait. I make that very clear so that nobody is surprised when it takes a while to get up for that walk or shower once they've called for me.

I firmly believe pts need orientation to the reality that exists in the hospital and that is, while I will make every effort to treat them as my only patient, many times they will have to wait because they are not my only patient. Most of them understand and the ones that don't...well, I'm sorry. I try. Until I grow more arms and legs, its just the fact of matter that I only move so fast.

Every time I am hospitalized (and I have been a few times for various things), I accommodate the nurse. After all, I am there for treatment and she is providing treatment. It may not always be convenient to be worken up at midnight for vital signs or 0400 for a lab draw, but its part of the information gathering process that needs to be completed so I can get the best treatment. It we operated on the times that the patient wanted blood drawn or did other treatments only when the patient wished, health care would be even more inefficient that it is now.

Specializes in CT stepdown, hospice, psych, ortho.
"Would you rather xxx or xxx? I'm sorry, I have 7 patients"

This is where the medical profession goes wrong, who fault is it that you have 7 patients certainly not the patients fault and I suggest you take that up with your employer. Are insurance is paying regardless if you have one patient or thirty. Maybe your employer could stop advertising on every billboard, magazine, or radio spot in your town claiming how there personal care out shines anyone of the hospitals in town. No hospitals are not hotels however it is a competitive business and the patient is the customer, and nurses choose to be nurses and if you can not handle the multi-tasking I suggest you become a junior high school nurse. STOP BLAMING THE PATIENT AND ACTING LIKE YOU ARE ALWAYS DOING THEM A FAVOR, YOU ARE JUST DOING THE JOB YOU SIGNED UP FOR. Doctors and nurses must stop telling the world how busy they are, the whole world is as busy as they are. Are nurses not aware corporate America has been downsizing for the last decade and most are doing the job of three employees? If other profession complained how busy they where to the customer they most likely would be fired. I understand some patients may be more difficult to deal with then others but I also deal with difficult customers everyday and the difficult customers also insure my family eats at night.

Nobody is blaming the patient or whining and I can handle multi tasking just fine. You don't need to take my opinion to a personal level and get snarky with me. All I said was I disagree about disrupting everything because someone is putting off talking a walk or completing some other task. I've got a whole badge full of stars from patients and familes that have taken the time to write management about my quality care. I like this forum because we can have civil disagreements and you're taking it to another level. Quit characterizing me as the nurse that rolls her eyes and cries to the patient about how busy she is. Its not reality. As I said before, I merely explain to them that I do have other patients and tasks and they may have to wait if they don't want to do whatever right now. I like to give patients a heads up so they aren't surprised that I can't always come right in when they are ready. I find that far more of them are appreciative that they are warned there will be a wait (same thing when a Dr's office tells you he's running behind in his appts rather than making you sit there without a warning) than get mad.

cb-rn:

I don't think we disagree as much as we think.....

This post was started from a quote supporting patient modesty, and you seem to support choice. I commend that: you may think it is common but it actually is not. Now these are the discussions potential patients and caregivers need to have!

Specializes in Hospice Palliative Care.

GEPDAR, I suggest you take that up with the hospital system, without personally blaming any of the nurses. It is not the nurses fault your insurance will only pay for a certain number of nursing hours, if you want your own private nurse who is at your beck and call when you want and you can pay more for it. The reality is that nurses have no power themselves as to how many patients they have, and how much help they have, the suits who run the hospital like a business and only have their eyes on the bottom line have the power. If the nurses complain, they soon find themselves looking for a new job, and if the patients complain they are looking for a new job.

If you went into Starbucks and saw that there was a huge line up and only one person behind the counter running like crazy, you might go somewhere else for coffee, but would you personally blame the employee. It isn't there fault no one else came to work, or their manager hadn't hired enough people to run the business properly, the employee is doing their best, but if you want service you will have to wait in line, and when you get to the front of the line if you say oh wait maybe I will have my coffee in 15 minutes you will be told to get to the back of the line again. In reality nursing is the same, if you want you can take your business elsewhere, but you will find the same situation no matter where you go.

1. I have been told most of my life that I am an incredible patient and I do not demand anything from nurses and I have been in and out of hospitals since a child. I am a very independent as a patient.

2. As a adult I have lived in six different states and some very large cities and I have never returned to some hospitals due to the fact of lousy care, so I have taken my business elsewhere.

3. Someone mentioned the nurse (who does roll her eyes and complain how busy they are), well you said it and you know nurses out there are doing that everyday.

4. Starbucks you are correct it is not the employees fault and to your point I have the option to leave because I saw how busy she was, patients as the consumer have no idea how your hospitals runs, how the schedule is made out, UNTIL WE ARE ADDMITTED. The same goes for we have no idea what we will be charged until it is all said and down. We have little to stand on legally to dispute a bill for rude behavior from a health care worker. Usually a generic Dear John/Jane letter is sent with no follow up from the institution. On the flip side patients get survey after survey to fill out about are hospital experiences.

5. Wow the" patient orientation" I am lost for words on that one. Humans will be human and if a selfish demanding person will be a selfish demanding patient, no orientation will fix that.

6. My insurance is quite adequate and I never asked for a private nurse for my every whim. My whim is to be treated with care and respect that is befitting what my insurance is being charged and what my copay is or I will never ever return to that institution again and I will right a letter to the institution and fill out my survey why I will not return.

7. The bottom line some nurses walk around with a chip on there shoulder as do some patients and that chip effects non chip wearing nurses and patients in different ways.

8. Do not get me going on the doctors offices running late with double bookings and the doctor going to the hospital to do rounds and has started his/her practice forty five minutes late for that day. The doctor taking time for medical reps that cut into the the patients time or throws the whole schedule out of whack. Us as the patients should be understanding because everyone is so busy at that office. I have no problem with a doctor running late for an emergency but that is not always the case.

9. I want to apologies to the earlier posters I did not mean to single out anyone or imply that you are in anyway ,shape or form a bad nurse or rude. I just get crazy when I hear how busy you are, trust me when I tell you we are all extremely busy as well out here in the world and we have the suits just caring about the bottom line with not a care in the world how the job gets done.

Specializes in Health Information Management.

@GEPDAR: There are in fact options for potential patients to seek out information about hospital rankings and reviewed quality of care data, patient satisfaction data, information about doctors, etc. before seeking care. If you are concerned about the care you may received, I suggest you seek out those sites. There is certainly much-needed debate about the validity of that data, but it will give you a start. Rather than coming onto a nursing board and berating nurses for the state of the overall healthcare system and the options available to you as a patient, perhaps your time would be better spent in investigating those options more fully.

Please note, I'm not a nurse, so I have no vested interest in defending the nurses who frequent this site. However, it seems inappropriate and a waste of time to come onto what is a site designed primarily for nurses and wrangle with them about issues largely outside their control. Yes downsizing is an issue in many fields; however, few of those fields involve life-or-death issues as the nursing field does. It seems only reasonable that those in this field would be more concerned and vocal about staffing shortages and cutbacks, given the importance of their work and the enormous impact on patients' lives when one nurse is asked to do the work of three.

I am extremely happy with my health care today and I am well aware of the rating sites that are available to each and everyone one of us. See maybe some patients need a "patient orientation" and some do not. When you have spent as much time and money as myself as a patient you enter each admission to the hospital with your eyes just a little more open then the last time.

Every nurse is far from perfect and yes criticism will happen but the ultimate excuse "I am so busy" is that just and excuse and many health care workers wear that on there sleeve.

The bottom line nurses are paid quite handsome for there education and experience and you hear very little about hospitals laying off nurses, very stable job security so there are many perks that come with being a nurse. Do you think I have never had a conversation with a nurse about them being a nurse? So you fail to realise some nurses are very honest about other lazy or rude nurses, remember majority of my nurses think I am a great patient so they will talk to me and befriend me during stays because I am not one of the ones who drives them nuts and I hardly ever use my call button ethier. My sister and sister-in- law are nurses and I have heard many stories from them the good the bad and the ugly. Many nurses do not deal with life or death on a regular basis in a hospital and the ones who do are paid even more, so to pull that card out is not going to work with me.

I must say that this discussion demonstrates why there

needs to be more communication between caregivers and

patients. Patients need to understand more about how

hospitals work and how important nurses are to, not just

their care, but to their survival. It's in the patients' best

interest to work with the nurse and cooperate as much

as possible. That doesn't mean that the patient must give

up all rights, can't ask questions, or state preferences. It

does mean that the patient needs to realize that he or she

is dealing with another human being who has strengths

and weaknesses just like the patient does; and the

patient needs to know that he or she is dealing with an

institutional culture that is different from the culture of

the kinds of institutions the patient may be familiar with.

Like all institutional cultures, it can be health or unhealthy,

or a combination.

And the nurse

needs to realize (most do) that most patients don't really

know much about how hospitals are run on the inside; that

often patients are fearful and vulnerable and sick and under

stress. The patient may just go along with a nurse, because

they are afraid to speak up, even though they have strong

reservations. Nurses and other caregivers need to do more

asking with patients and less assuming that they already

know what "patients" as a group want. Caregivers need

to make sure that those running the hospital actually

give you permission to accomplish your mission with the

core values that the institution says they value. You'll rarely

find the words "profitability" or "efficiency" or "productive"

in core value statements. You will find words like "dignity"

and "respect" and "values." Fight to make sure your bosses

allow you to do what they say the institution really considers

important.

Yes, it's about respect from both ends, patient and nurse.

But it's also about good communication, and those who are

fully dressed and in possession of the medical knowledge

have the responsibility to see that the patient feels comfortable

enough to speak up. By the time a patient has gotten into a

gown and is dealing with a nurse, that patient has already met

and talked with several other members of the hospital "team."

If all those encounters have been good, and the patient feels

safe and respected, the stage is better set for a friendly encounter

between patient and nurse. If the stage hasn't been set properly,

and the patient doesn't feel respect and safe at that point, the

nurse has much more work to do if the relationship is to work

for the benefit of both.

Power is not an evil concept. Power is a neutral concept. It

can be used for good or for evil, it can empower people or

disempower them, it can relieve or create stress. When power

is used humanely, we may call it leadership. When it's used badly,

we may call it tyranny or bullying. Anybody who is in a position

of authority needs to use power at times one way or another.

We can use a business model, like Starbucks, to a certain

degree. But the services that hospitals provide can not be compared

with a cup of coffee. It's easier to forgo a cup of coffee because of

bad service and go to another cafe. It's more difficult for patients

to get up, and get dressed and leave the hospital because of poor

service. There's more at stake.

I suppose the point I'm making is the we all need to remember

that, at bottom, we're all human beings, patients and nurses. We

need to treat each other with respect and dignity. Sounds like the

golden rule, doesn't it? Another cliche? Perhaps. But cliches are

cliches for a reason. Maybe because there's a significant amount of

truth contained in them.

I am extremely happy with my health care today and I am well aware of the rating sites that are available to each and everyone one of us. See maybe some patients need a "patient orientation" and some do not. When you have spent as much time and money as myself as a patient you enter each admission to the hospital with your eyes just a little more open then the last time.

Every nurse is far from perfect and yes criticism will happen but the ultimate excuse "I am so busy" is that just and excuse and many health care workers wear that on there sleeve.

The bottom line nurses are paid quite handsome for there education and experience and you hear very little about hospitals laying off nurses, very stable job security so there are many perks that come with being a nurse. Do you think I have never had a conversation with a nurse about them being a nurse? So you fail to realise some nurses are very honest about other lazy or rude nurses, remember majority of my nurses think I am a great patient so they will talk to me and befriend me during stays because I am not one of the ones who drives them nuts and I hardly ever use my call button ethier. My sister and sister-in- law are nurses and I have heard many stories from them the good the bad and the ugly. Many nurses do not deal with life or death on a regular basis in a hospital and the ones who do are paid even more, so to pull that card out is not going to work with me.

Everyone may be busy in the real world, but the stakes for prioritizing time badly are much higher for nurses than for the Starbuck's employee. The coffee barrister can take her clients first come, first serve as it's unlikely anyone in the middle of the line will die from not getting their caffeine fix on time (although they may feel crummy).

Nurses can be very busy, I'm sorry if you don't accept that reality. While it's not the patient's fault the nurse is busy, the patient (and/or their insurance company) are not paying for a private nurse, they're paying for a nurse who has other patients as well. As this is healthcare, and not Starbuck's, things are not always first come, first serve....so sometimes, the nurse will be busy when a patient would like something.

A patient's dignity, autonomy and rights should of course be respected and protected. I think that there is an obvious power disparity....anytime someone in the room is mostly naked and someone has their clothes on, there's a power disparity. Everything reasonable should be done to meet both a patient's needs and wants. But to say that a nurses saying that they're busy is just an ultimate excuse is naive.

Specializes in LTC/Behavioral/ Hospice.

Being busy may not seem like a good excuse to the patient who hears it, but to the patient who I just spent 30 minutes with trying to control a bleed which took precedence over your need, it has a whole different meaning. Just because I don't care to define what I was busy with to my other patients doesn't mean that it wasn't extremely important. I prioritize care. If you don't get what you were expecting right when you were expecting it, you can be sure it wasn't because I was sitting at the nurses station eating bon bons. It is just as frustrating to me when care isn't given in a timely manner, but it is a fact of life in the medical field. To expect an immediate response at all times is unreasonable unless the patient is willing to pay for a private nurse. Things don't always go smoothly when you are dealing with human beings, let alone sick human beings. I do my best to be respectful and professional with those in my care. When I say I've been busy, believe me, I've been busy.

As to the issue of power, I know that when a patient is only covered in a gown, reeling from bad news just given that day, with little information, I seem like a pretty powerful person at that moment. It's a scary place to be. I've been there. I hope I never forget that. At the same time, there has got to be some give and take between the patient and the staff that are caring for them. If you can't get your shower until this afternoon because "we are busy", then understand that it isn't about power but about staffing. There has been many a time when I've been raked over the coals by an irate patient who seems plenty powerful to me when they are threatening my livelihood because I didn't get such n such done when they wanted it done.

The issue is not whether we get what we want when we want it as patients. I believe we are trying to defend a concept that was not meant. The question is, balancing the power of control in ones care and having control over who views and touches one's naked body. If it takes coersion , then that person is telling you that for what ever reason they need/want to protect their body. Perhaps better mitigating options need to be available.

Yes we are all busy. Yes the stakes are higher in a medical situation. But potential patients take thier modesty and values with them wherever they go, and waiting for someone they feel more comfortable with is usually a better option than enduring (in their eyes) humiliation. Let's face it: we protect our nakedness in society. You can not expect one to easily give that up just because they may be in a medical setting. It just doesn't make sense to many people, and very hard to justify.

Specializes in ER.
"Would you rather xxx or xxx? I'm sorry, I have 7 patients"

This is where the medical profession goes wrong, who fault is it that you have 7 patients certainly not the patients fault and I suggest you take that up with your employer. Are insurance is paying regardless if you have one patient or thirty. Maybe your employer could stop advertising on every billboard, magazine, or radio spot in your town claiming how there personal care out shines anyone of the hospitals in town. No hospitals are not hotels however it is a competitive business and the patient is the customer, and nurses choose to be nurses and if you can not handle the multi-tasking I suggest you become a junior high school nurse. STOP BLAMING THE PATIENT AND ACTING LIKE YOU ARE ALWAYS DOING THEM A FAVOR, YOU ARE JUST DOING THE JOB YOU SIGNED UP FOR. Doctors and nurses must stop telling the world how busy they are, the whole world is as busy as they are. Are nurses not aware corporate America has been downsizing for the last decade and most are doing the job of three employees? If other profession complained how busy they where to the customer they most likely would be fired. I understand some patients may be more difficult to deal with then others but I also deal with difficult customers everyday and the difficult customers also insure my family eats at night.

I don't think this is intimidating or devaluing the patient's request, this is just stating a fact. It it true that the nurse has x number of patients and has to do something for everyone. We have to prioritize every day, and some items aren't even up for consideration, they are that far down on the priority list (like backrubs). The patient you describe has been asked by the nurse to give some input as far as what will be done that day, and that's the kind of empowerment you're looking for, right? It's possible some other task can be delegated to other personnel on that day, please don't just assume neglect because the nurse is unable to do it all by themselves.

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