Nurse Anesthetists: We Have the Wrong Attitude!

Specialties CRNA

Published

Hello all...

I am a long time reader, and have never been motivated to post before now. I have to admit, I'm exteremely disheartened by all these political threads both here and on SDN about scope of practice of anesthesiology! Make no mistake, I'm the first one to advocate preserving the right to practice for CRNAs, but there is an important factor we are leaving out of these discussions...the patient!

It seems as though these discussions are no longer about what's important. They read very much like a pissing match over "territory" of CRNAs vs. MDs. We need to worry less about our "rights" and our paychecks, and more about the most important person in the OR, the PATIENT!

When it comes right down to it, we all know that when a patient crumps, its GREAT to have a second mind and set of hands there. So I have to ask, what's the big deal about supervision? I for one love the idea of having an MD there to help me out if a patient cant be ventilated, or if they are in sever bronchospasm. I know that the docs feel the same way about me. Again....having that kind of team approach only benefits the patient.

I also think we have to acknowledge one thing. I know some people aren't going to like this, but MDs do have more extensive training and education than us. I for one know that the MD I work with in the heart room knows alot more about managing acute MI than I do, and if a patient starts going ischemic I am GLAD to have him there. If I was having a CABG, I would certainly want MD backup, and I think other CRNAs would be hard pressed to disagree! They supervise us because they should! I work quite frequently on the labor deck at my institution. I know I would be quite put off if RNs suddenly started putting in and managing epidurals. Why? Because they don't have equivalent education! Nonetheless, I believe it would be of benefit to the PATIENT to have the RN there to assist should a probelm arise. And if you're concerned about your paycheck, I have to ask why. It's unfair to refer to MDs as "making $700K off of CRNAs" and the like. First off, I don't know an MD making that much in anesthesia. Regardless, they go through a minimum of 12 years of training...more if they pursue a fellowship. It makes sense that they make more money. They also have a considerable burden of debt...the MD I work with has $250k in loans from undergraduate and med school combined. My debt, and the debt of most CRNAs, does not approach that. bottom line is, we make a nice living doing what we do, and most of us get a huge amount of satisfaction from it without regard to whether or not we are being supervised by an MD.

Getting back to the patient, the most important person(I want to reiterate that): I read all over this forum that there is no evidence that supervised anesthesia is superior outcome-wise to non-superivsed anesthesia. I wish this were true, because it would simplify a complex issue, but it's not. If you check out this article:

http://www.anesthesiology.org/pt/re/anes/fulltext.00000542-200007000-00026.htm;jsessionid=C2Yi8r1TJNa1YQPms0ChEn9pxFt9A19yChuQu6dWGq3PoFadx2Zq!250931426!-949856145!9001!-1

There's a pretty clear advantage to having supervision in the OR in terms of mortality. Don't trust the MDs journal you say? Well, I'm not sure I do either, but there are studies in our own journal that, depending on how you interpret them, you could conclude that there is either no difference OR an advantage to being supervised. Of course, there are problems with these studies, as with all studies, but the BOTTOM LINE is the same....there is a paucity of good evidence, and neither the CRNAs nor the MDs can make any claims either way about outcomes. It's inappropriate, and just not good science at this point in time. And even if there were good science to support unsupervised anesthesia, it would not change the central issue.

Why do I bring up the research? Just to drive home my point again. why does it matter? We should be worried about our patients, not who gets a bigger paycheck or whether or not we are supervised. The same goes for the MDs...however I would caution CRNAs....the MDs appear, to the public at least, to be more interested in patient safety than we are. Has anyone read the recent article in the Wall Street Journal about anesthesiology as a field of medicine? If you haven't you should....

http://webreprints.djreprints.com/1254400029287.html

This article was brought to my attention BY A PATIENT, along with a question about what CRNAs do to improve patient safety. It scared me when I could not answer. In the past, the WSJ has continually criticized anesthesiologists for poor outcomes, publicizing unfortunate and rare cases as routine, and thus making anesthesia practitioners as a whole look bad. With that in mind, I think that this article is a real breakthrough for anesthesiologists. In contrast, our website (AANA) reads like a childish attack on MDs (IMHO). In my opinion, publicizing this type of attitude is not the way to move our initiatives forward.

I'm done. If you took the time to read this long-winded rant, I thank you. I want to emphasize that ALL of the above goes for the "other" side of the conflict as well. I hope they have a similar voice of reason on their forums.

The patient is the important person. Ask yourself this: if you were on the table for a CABG, or if your wife of child was going under the knife, do you want your anesthesia provider thinking solely about the case, or do you want them thinking about how to thwart the MDs? Let's make a good name for ourselves and keep the patient at the center of our attention.

Jon

Specializes in Anesthesia.
......I just won't be pulled into a childish pissing match.

From someone who posts an accusatory subject headline ("We have the wrong attitude") isn't it very curious that the accuser now won't respond to contrary opinions and posts, well, childish comparisons as above. How mature is that?

deepz

Specializes in MICU, CVICU.

Whoa...I did not question your credentials. I merely asked where you went to school. Based on the information I could find you "should" not be old enough to have 2 years of experience as a CRNA. I was curious as to whether you a) graduated early (which I now know) from high school or college or b) possibly went to a school that did not require experience (yes, while I know this is incredibly rare it has been previously posted here that such a school does exist). Never once in my post did I say anything about you possibly not being a CRNA.

And I'm sure no one on SDN has disagreed with you or questioned your credentials. The only people whose credentials are questioned over there are ones who disagree with the standard viewpoint of that forum. You stated that CRNAs have the wrong attitude and that we should be supervised. That is exactly what the posters at that forum believe and want to have policy changed so that supervision or direction (or whatever other word we can use to try to make this even more confusing) mandatory. While I'm not yet a CRNA, I do not feel that CRNAs need to be told how to do their job. Yes it is always nice to have another person as a reference. But how much that person is used as a reference and how much that person dictates or tells another how to work? That is what is in question. And I fully admit I know slim to none about the working world of anesthesia other than what I have seen in OR rotations in school and a few days that I have shadowed CRNAs. However, all of the posters up until gaspassah are not CRNAs either. And while many may know about the debate and may have seen it in the OR, I do not feel that you can truly understand it until it is your job, your autonomy, and your knowledge that has been called into question.

I would be interested to see what other practicing CRNAs feel about this, as the only ones that have posted (I believe) are gaspassah and deepz.

BTW I have henceforth forbidden myself from reading SDN. All it does is cause me to become angry and question my decision to pursue anesthesia.

Specializes in Nursing Assistant/ Army Medic, LVN.

How's that thread working out on SDN??

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Doesn't look like there was much time to question credentials.

I must say, for a private pilot, husband, and father of 3, you certainly must know how to make good use of your time. (Let alone being a CRNA for the past 2 years.) I hope you can stick around for a while, this forum could always use more bright young professionals.

I agree that patient care and safety should always be the #1 concern - not only for anesthesia, but all areas of health care.

BTW,

This is my opinion. I stand by it no matter how much I may be flamed by overzealous, power hungry CRNAS on this forum.

Nice attitude.

When I first saw this thread, I almost took the bait and responded. I thought about it long and hard, but could not bring myself to rehash this arguement again. So I let it go to see what would transpire. It started well, but has lately become a personal attack thread.

I am going to let this thread continue for a bit longer, but will be watching to make sure it does not digress any further. If it does, it will be locked.

This is an issue that is worth discussing, and needs to be kept alive. Unfortunatley it is an issue which does not have an easy answer and tends to cause people to argue rather than discuss.

I would like to suggest that interested readers look up this topic in the old threads via the search function.

Craig

Forgive my ignorance, but until this thread, I had no idea how little I knew re: CRNA scope of practice....just trying to understand....are you all saying that it is possible to work independently as a CRNA? Or is that what CRNA's are attempting to get accomplished at some point? This has definitely caught my interest....like I said...I obviously don't know much about this. I thought you all had to work under the direction of an MD....or does this vary from state to state?

Enlighten me, Oh wise ones :wink2:

Kathryn

Specializes in CRNA, Finally retired.
I am not advocating supervision at all. I am advocating teamwork nothing more nothing less. Like I posted earlier. I want to be able to do everything I will be licensed to do. I want autonomy but I also want to be able to bounce things off someone be it a CRNA or MDA. I will however show each respect.

I think I get what you're saying. I don't object to working with MDA's. However, if I were going into a brand new country to set up a health care system, I would be confident that it was be more efficient if 90% of the anesthetics were given by CRNA's and 10% by MDA's. We need MDA's, but we don't need so many of them. I went to a midwife today for routine gyn check up. It galls me that I had to wait 20 years to get a routine exam by someone other than an MD. If midwives delivered the large majority of the babies, it would be a different world upstairs on that OB floor. Most of the women would be coached into giving birth without a garden hose in their backs. The appropriate provider for the appropriate patient - seems simple and sane to me.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

Thread closed for cooling-off and moderator discussion. *Again*, I will ask, please observe TOS (to which we all agreed) when engaged in debate---and keep it flame and attack-free.

Here is the TOS (terms of service) link for those who need to see it:

https://allnurses.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31788

Thank you for your understanding.

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