NP science preparation vs. MD science preparation

n_g · Apr 25, 2008

You would need thousands of patients data between several providers to even come close to having some kind of convincing study. Do you even have any idea how long/how much money/how complicated that would be to do as an experimental (quasi-experimental) study that you are suggesting.

Cost is not the prohibitive factor. You would be comparing the outcomes of two groups. One by NP's. One by MD's. How many research studies and how much money do you think is spent on research every year? There's nothing about doing a nationwide, multi-center study that would be out of the ordinary in terms of cost. You're not building a multi-billion dollar particle accelerator here.

grad*student · Apr 25, 2008

Again going back to the idea that med students are trained purely as generalists, whereas most NP programs are specialty focused, except for ANP and FNP programs.
I would rather spend my 46 credit hours studying the assessment/management/diagnosis of my 0-2 yr old population than spending my hard-earned money and limited time studying fun, but not particularly useful sciences. Do I really need Virology, immunology and Mycology to practice effectively as an NNP? It may give me a better scientific basis, but is it an effective use of my training time?

It is very relevant to MY future practice as an NP. In addition to these, of course I will have all the nursing classes that focus on clinical management. Of course these classes would not be relevant for a non-ID NP. I presented this as an example. I've known of genetic nurses who are more heavily prepared in their respective sciences, or cardiology NP that focus in their area -- and yes, understanding basic science can make a better clinician in certain types of fields.

amzyRN · Apr 25, 2008

Calculus is actually not that difficult of a class. I really enjoyed my calculus class. I think there are myths about these classes being so intensely difficult. I think in general out educational system does not push students to stretch their thinking to it's capacity, which is a shame, because it is exciting to go to the limits of ones intellect and expand it. For some reason, some people say to themselves "oh, that class is too hard for me, or I don't need that class for my major," and that is really limiting.

amzyRN · Apr 25, 2008

I agree. Anywhere this team model exists, whether in a critical care setting or outpatient, creates the best outcome for the patient. Nothing we do medically is worth a toot without the contributions of mental health and other members of the team. IMHO, social workers are the unsung heroes of the world. Those folks are amazing.
I wonder if a stronger medical science foundation as you proposed would weed out students who may slip through less rigorous programs. My biggest concern during some classes was that they were too easy... you didn't have to know the material to do well and there were those who took advantage of that. Of course whatever inadequacies exist will come out during employment, but I hate to hear that an NP was hired who couldn't cut it, had poor grammer, didn't know her pharm, or had to be "trained" by the physician. I know there will always be a few bad apples... but it gives the rest of us a bad name.
Under the current educational system it seems that students who are proactive about learning find a way to get what they need. But for those who are not, I wonder if higher standards would increase the overall quality of NP's. Not to garner respect from MD's per se, but to prepare for a world where we need to dialogue critically with drug reps, communicate professionally with colleagues and understand the research, epi and pharm that drives our practice.

I totally agree with you that some classes are too easy. Raising the bar would not necessarily exclude people, if some of the slackers would commit to studying for their classes. The pre med curriculum is actually quite basic and with effort and enough preparation, the general population could ace them. I think that graduate school should be rigorous, in any discipline. Rigorous study does not have to be exclusive, it just pushes everyone to do their best.

allnurses Guide · Apr 26, 2008

Cost is not the prohibitive factor. You would be comparing the outcomes of two groups. One by NP's. One by MD's. How many research studies and how much money do you think is spent on research every year? There's nothing about doing a nationwide, multi-center study that would be out of the ordinary in terms of cost. You're not building a multi-billion dollar particle accelerator here.

When you decide to post your qualifications/education then we can continue this conversation until then I have already posted my comments and exactly what I think of yours.

Bree124, BSN, RN · Apr 28, 2008

I don't think that requiring more fundamental science courses for the NP role will increase the level of respect that the position garners (although I still don't think it's a bad idea in general).

My husband is a chiropractor, and during their first two years of chiro school, they take several semesters of gross anatomy (with full cadaver labs), physiology, pathology, clinical path, micro, biochem, clinical biochem, immunology, embryology, and many more courses. These courses are taught by PhD's, MD's, and DC's, and the students have board exams that cover these courses to ensure minimal competency in these core sciences.

People still think it's a degree you can get at a community college.

Faith213 · Apr 28, 2008

Calculus is actually not that difficult of a class. I really enjoyed my calculus class. I think there are myths about these classes being so intensely difficult. I think in general out educational system does not push students to stretch their thinking to it's capacity, which is a shame, because it is exciting to go to the limits of ones intellect and expand it. For some reason, some people say to themselves "oh, that class is too hard for me, or I don't need that class for my major," and that is really limiting.

This is something that has been brought to my attention alot lately. I sometimes find myself wishing I was raised in India, China, or other eastern countries so I could have a better education. Their cirricula is so much more advanced from what I have heard about and they still think it's so easy. I feel sort of let down by America. :uhoh21:

grad*student · Apr 28, 2008

I don't think that requiring more fundamental science courses for the NP role will increase the level of respect that the position garners (although I still don't think it's a bad idea in general).
My husband is a chiropractor, and during their first two years of chiro school, they take several semesters of gross anatomy (with full cadaver labs), physiology, pathology, clinical path, micro, biochem, clinical biochem, immunology, embryology, and many more courses. These courses are taught by PhD's, MD's, and DC's, and the students have board exams that cover these courses to ensure minimal competency in these core sciences.
People still think it's a degree you can get at a community college.

Maybe it doesn't garner more respect b/c there are misconceptions about the field, but regardless, it probably makes him a better chiropractor!

Bree124, BSN, RN · Apr 28, 2008

Maybe it doesn't garner more respect b/c there are misconceptions about the field, but regardless, it probably makes him a better chiropractor!

Yes, undoubtedly!

amzyRN · May 5, 2008

I don't think that requiring more fundamental science courses for the NP role will increase the level of respect that the position garners (although I still don't think it's a bad idea in general).
My husband is a chiropractor, and during their first two years of chiro school, they take several semesters of gross anatomy (with full cadaver labs), physiology, pathology, clinical path, micro, biochem, clinical biochem, immunology, embryology, and many more courses. These courses are taught by PhD's, MD's, and DC's, and the students have board exams that cover these courses to ensure minimal competency in these core sciences.
People still think it's a degree you can get at a community college.

I see your point. Do you think it would yield a better practitioner?

Bree124, BSN, RN · May 6, 2008

Yes and no. Someone who is going to school to be an Adult Nurse Practitioner - Older Adults (a specialty that my school offers) really doesn't need to learn the nitty gritty details of embryology. The additional coursework, which obviously adds length to the program, could be a turn off to some students who are considering the NP route.

However, I feel that a broader knowledge of clinical sciences cannot HURT the profession, and I definitely wouldn't mind seeing it happen. It just doesn't necessarily make sense with the way the system works now. If NP school was more similar to PA school (in that you don't have to choose a specialty area) it would be more logical.