I was looking at the definition of a LPN on Discover Nursing.com and theres not much difference in what they do and a PCA in a hospital. Just Licensure and a lot of money spent on schooling. Whats the point why not just work as a PCA and get your RN degree? here's the definition: LPNs, or Licensed Vocational Nurses (LVNs), as they are called in Texas and California, care for the sick, injured, convalescent, and disabled under the direction of physicians and registered nurses. They provide basic care, taking vital signs, temperature, blood pressure, and pulse, and assist with bathing patients, monitoring catheters, and applying dressings. Most LPN or LVN programs are about a year long and are offered by technical and vocational schools.
I am taking class to be a PCA and then going for a RN the LPN seems a waste of money really, cause everyone I know wants or wishes they were an RN.
See, I agree there is a distinct difference between LPN and CNA (with the small hospital I worked at being an exception). But I think the difference between LPN and RN is cosmetic mostly. For the life of me, I cant see any benefit to being LPN instead of RN. Not one rational reason.
I was an LPN for several years before I became an RN.
In my experience, the difference between the two is huge.
You know, I have to say I get a little miffed when I read threads like this. Declaring an entire profession "useless" or "pointless" isn't just a hypothetical conversation. There are REAL PEOPLE (who also happen to be REAL NURSES, with a slightly different scope) doing the work you deem as pointless, and it's a little tiresome to hear this discussion over and over.
Here's the difference between a PCA and an LPN...a LICENSE. And about a year worth of intensive, DIFFICULT training. And with that license and training, the responsibility to use NURSING JUDGEMENT to make determinations for the care of our patients, as only a LICENSED care-giver can do. If you see "no difference" between what an LPN and a PCA can do, you FRIGHTEN ME because you are missing something crucial. Many of the tasks may be the same - I work in LTC besides RN's who do the EXACT same job (in terms of TASKS) that I do. The difference is in SCOPE. Nursing is not about TASKS. It's about assessment, it's about utilizing judgement based on TRAINING. I can teach a chimp to insert a foley or pass meds. If you think that's all nursing is, you're missing the point.
And I wish folks would think twice before they declare my profession "pointless". If you are in a situation where you can pursue your RN directly, good for you - this is not the case for all. I've started as an LPN and I'm a better nurse for it - when I DO become an RN, I will have a wealth of experience and perspective that many nurses do not have. But if you don't yet know enough to respect and appreciate ALL levels of care-givers for their unique place in the culture of healthcare, you have A LOT to learn before you can assume the responsibilities of an RN with any effectiveness. I pray you gain that perspective, and sooner rather than later.
I was an LPN for several years before I became an RN.
In my experience, the difference between the two is huge.
ABSOLUTELY.
The "LPN's are the same as RN's" idea is just a preposterous as the "PCA's are the same as LPN's" idea. A lot of overlap in terms of tasks, but each one is as different from the other as can be when it comes to actual responsiblity and scope.
Each level of caregiver needs to be appreciated for what they offer. It's a very UNSAFE practitioner that doesn't understand the differences in scope between us.
The "LPN's are the same as RN's" idea is just a preposterous as the "PCA's are the same as LPN's" idea. A lot of overlap in terms of tasks, but each one is as different from the other as can be when it comes to actual responsiblity and scope.
Each level of caregiver needs to be appreciated for what they offer. It's a very UNSAFE practitioner that doesn't understand the differences in scope between us.
Eh, a lot of people say LPN and RN are "absolutely different" and all, but there is not objective data to support is. Just a lot of "in my experience" statements. "My experience" is subjective, different people walk away from the same situation with completely different readings on what just happened. Every see where there is an auto accident and two people who saw it from the same viewpoint have completely different versions on what happened?
LPN vs RN is mostly cosmetic. Heck, in FLA, the biggest thing RNs can do that LPNs cant is.....................(drumroll)........digital examination. Whoa.....now there is a huge contribution to the medical field we couldnt go without. Thank you so much for your expertise on digital examination, people would be dropping like flies without the proper expertise in such a vital part of the pt's scope of practice.
Walk into any acute or LTC facility, and unless you witness IV push meds...........you can not tell the difference between the LPNs and RNs. If it wasnt on their name badges, you wouldnt know.
Eh, a lot of people say LPN and RN are "absolutely different" and all, but there is not objective data to support is. Just a lot of "in my experience" statements. "My experience" is subjective, different people walk away from the same situation with completely different readings on what just happened. Every see where there is an auto accident and two people who saw it from the same viewpoint have completely different versions on what happened?
LPN vs RN is mostly cosmetic. Heck, in FLA, the biggest thing RNs can do that LPNs cant is.....................(drumroll)........digital examination. Whoa.....now there is a huge contribution to the medical field we couldnt go without. Thank you so much for your expertise on digital examination, people would be dropping like flies without the proper expertise in such a vital part of the pt's scope of practice.
Walk into any acute or LTC facility, and unless you witness IV push meds...........you can not tell the difference between the LPNs and RNs. If it wasnt on their name badges, you wouldnt know.
There's not alot of objective data to support it? Read your state BON's nurse practice act. I know in Ohio it's filled with *LOTS* of "objective evidence" re: LPN scope of practice vs. RN.
I don't want to split hairs with you man, but again, the seemingly "cosmetic" difference comes to tasks when delivering bedside care. Yeah, like i said above at my facility the RN floor nurses deliver the same care as the LPN's. In my case, I'm also IV certified, so technically I can do almost anything that those RN's can do - TASK-WISE. There is still a certain level of assessment that MUST be done by an RN - and i'm grateful for that, because I'm a new nurse and I DON'T have the training that an RN has. Certain changes to care plans, etc - require an RN.
I just think it's foolish when LPN's say "I'm the same as an RN". No, actually you're NOT. Likewise for the STNA's/PCA's who try to present themselves as nurses (which happens A LOT where I work). Those aides THINK they understand the rationale behind a nurse's actions, but in reality they don't. I find it's the same with a great many LPN's who think they are "equal" to RN's. It's demeaning to all sides when people don't understand/respect their limitations. Respecting my scope and my limitations doesn't mean I can't be interested in bettering myself, and it certainly doesn't make me any LESS of a nurse- it just means that I'm aware of where I am right now.
There IS a documented legal difference in scope of practice. There IS a difference in scope, breadth, and content of education. It might not be apparent from watching two staff nurses work down a hall. But it's there. And I pity anyone who tries to convince the state surveyor's/BON/malpractice attorney's that those differences are just "cosmetic".
PS as a side note: I had a pt just last night say to me "You're easily one of the best nurses I've seen here, and i've been here almost 10 years....you're an RN, right?". She was shocked when she found out I was an LPN - didn't believe me and asked to see my badge. We laughed about it, and I was flattered, but before I left I teased her and said "what, all the GOOD nurses automatically HAVE to be RN's?". Sad that that myth keeps getting perpetuated. There are good and bad nurses at all levels. I find that the best ones are the ones who understand and respect the differences.
There's not alot of objective data to support it? Read your state BON's nurse practice act. I know in Ohio it's filled with *LOTS* of "objective evidence" re: LPN scope of practice vs. RN.
I don't want to split hairs with you man, but again, the seemingly "cosmetic" difference comes to tasks when delivering bedside care. Yeah, like i said above at my facility the RN floor nurses deliver the same care as the LPN's. In my case, I'm also IV certified, so technically I can do almost anything that those RN's can do - TASK-WISE. There is still a certain level of assessment that MUST be done by an RN - and i'm grateful for that, because I'm a new nurse and I DON'T have the training that an RN has. Certain changes to care plans, etc - require an RN.
I just think it's foolish when LPN's say "I'm the same as an RN". No, actually you're NOT. Likewise for the STNA's/PCA's who try to present themselves as nurses (which happens A LOT where I work). Those aides THINK they understand the rationale behind a nurse's actions, but in reality they don't. I find it's the same with a great many LPN's who think they are "equal" to RN's. It's demeaning to all sides when people don't understand/respect their limitations. Respecting my scope and my limitations doesn't mean I can't be interested in bettering myself, and it certainly doesn't make me any LESS of a nurse- it just means that I'm aware of where I am right now.
There IS a documented legal difference in scope of practice. There IS a difference in scope, breadth, and content of education. It might not be apparent from watching two staff nurses work down a hall. But it's there. And I pity anyone who tries to convince the state surveyor's/BON/malpractice attorney's that those differences are just "cosmetic".
PS as a side note: I had a pt just last night say to me "You're easily one of the best nurses I've seen here, and i've been here almost 10 years....you're an RN, right?". She was shocked when she found out I was an LPN - didn't believe me and asked to see my badge. We laughed about it, and I was flattered, but before I left I teased her and said "what, all the GOOD nurses automatically HAVE to be RN's?". Sad that that myth keeps getting perpetuated. There are good and bad nurses at all levels. I find that the best ones are the ones who understand and respect the differences.
That says it all, doesnt it? She didnt know. I dont think an RN would have done anything differently than you and would have gotten a better review.
I have seen the BON's description of the differences. I'm a travel nurse, I have to read those 350 page manuals every time I change states because there are small but important details that are different from state to state. There really is no practical difference other than IV meds. Dont drink that poisonous kool-aid that everyone offers saying "care plan changes" and "understanding why we do things". To assume an LPN doesnt understand "why" is not practical nor is it real. Its the chatter of nurses who want to pump themselves up, not a non-bias assessment of the situation.
An LPN in the real world must understand what they are doing and the reasons for it every bit as much as a typical RN. I realize there is data to show mortality rates rise in hospitals still using LPNs, but I am not convinced that has anything to do with the LPNs. My opinion: It has to do with the fact that using LPNs is a cost cutter for hospitals. The LPN is expected to perform most RN duties, but also continue to function as a CNA. Their workload is heavier. Of course they are rushing through their tasks and not spending as much time keeping an eye on lab values and assessing reactions to medications.
If care plans are the only difference between RNs and LPNs (and IV pushes) then I'd rather be an LPN, they are better educated if their schooling bypasses care plans. Care plans are the most task oriented approach I have ever seen. If RNs think they are superior because they can "think critically" and LPNs cant, they'd better come up with something better than care plans to prove this.
There is a big difference in the job duties of a PCA and a LPN. I work on a med/surg unit at the local hospital as a LPN and I do just about everything the RN's do. I start care plans, admission assessments, shift assessments, start IV's, give IVP meds, hang IVPB, draw blood from PICC's and Ports, hang blood products etc. The only things I cannot do is access/deaccess ports, titrate drips, and push certain meds. I am going to get my RN degree so I can get their pay and the recognition I deserve. On my unit LPN's and RN's are considered equal. The PCA's we call them CNA's do direct patient care only. It look like every state is different. I believe a nurse is a nurse no matter if you are a LPN or RN. We have a great respect for our CNA's also, they make our job easier. I was a CNA for 23 years before I became a LPN.
i was looking at the definition of a lpn on discover nursing.com and theres not much difference in what they do and a pca in a hospital. just licensure and a lot of money spent on schooling. whats the point why not just work as a pca and get your rn degree? here's the definition: lpns, or licensed vocational nurses (lvns), as they are called in texas and california, care for the sick, injured, convalescent, and disabled under the direction of physicians and registered nurses. they provide basic care, taking vital signs, temperature, blood pressure, and pulse, and assist with bathing patients, monitoring catheters, and applying dressings. most lpn or lvn programs are about a year long and are offered by technical and vocational schools.
i am taking class to be a pca and then going for a rn the lpn seems a waste of money really, cause everyone i know wants or wishes they were an rn.
would you be taking the nclex-pca when you finish your pca class? because that is the big difference-lpn has a license.
also you want to know why it is not such a waste of money for me to be an lpn?
i have a friend who has been a pca for the past 10 years and it took her that 10 years to make what i am making now as a brand new lpn. and i paid 3-4k for my entire lpn program. now does that "seems a waste of money really" to you? and do you want to know how much i made last year with few ots? 60k!! do you still think it's a waste? do you know how many people would love to make 60k a year?
That says it all, doesnt it? She didnt know. I dont think an RN would have done anything differently than you and would have gotten a better review.
I have seen the BON's description of the differences. I'm a travel nurse, I have to read those 350 page manuals every time I change states because there are small but important details that are different from state to state. There really is no practical difference other than IV meds. Dont drink that poisonous kool-aid that everyone offers saying "care plan changes" and "understanding why we do things". To assume an LPN doesnt understand "why" is not practical nor is it real. Its the chatter of nurses who want to pump themselves up, not a non-bias assessment of the situation.
An LPN in the real world must understand what they are doing and the reasons for it every bit as much as a typical RN. I realize there is data to show mortality rates rise in hospitals still using LPNs, but I am not convinced that has anything to do with the LPNs. My opinion: It has to do with the fact that using LPNs is a cost cutter for hospitals. The LPN is expected to perform most RN duties, but also continue to function as a CNA. Their workload is heavier. Of course they are rushing through their tasks and not spending as much time keeping an eye on lab values and assessing reactions to medications.
If care plans are the only difference between RNs and LPNs (and IV pushes) then I'd rather be an LPN, they are better educated if their schooling bypasses care plans. Care plans are the most task oriented approach I have ever seen. If RNs think they are superior because they can "think critically" and LPNs cant, they'd better come up with something better than care plans to prove this.
You know, it's funny, because I think we're probably actually saying more or less the same thing, we're just coming at it from different angles. I agree with 99% of what you're saying.
I think from my perspective, it comes down to differences of education and experience. I don't have years of experience to draw from yet, I have only my education. Which was EXCELLENT, I'm proud to say....but a full year shorter than an RN's. I get REALLY frazzled when LPN's try to state that they have the same education as an RN - THEY DON'T. PERIOD. I know, people will say that lots of the RN program is fluff (much like the arguement in the BSN vs. ASN threads)...but there's a lot of "stuff" that DOESN'T get covered in the same depth in LPN school as it does in RN. I'm bridging into my RN and the stuff that I'm learning as I start to see the difference between the two programs is REALLY proof of that.
Maybe experience is the great equalizer. Maybe a few more years under my belt would help to narrow that gap. I don't know, I'm not there yet. As of right now, I see what was taught in my LPN courses, I see what is being taught in my RN courses, and I can see and appreciate the difference in depth and scope between them. I have to wonder how informed a person is if they refute that. On the job (ESPECIALLY in LTF's) I can see how that difference might not translate as obviously.
And for the record, I'm with you on the care plan bunk. When they're used primarily for justifying billing or as one more form that covers the facility/caregivers A$$, they're worthless. When they're REALLY genuinely used to help crystallize thoughts on the best options of care for a patient (and not just "Oh crap I have to come up with a Dx to keep state happy"), I find them helpful. Again, maybe that's just because i'm still green. I'll let you know in a few years.
Don't get me wrong, I'm proud to be an LPN. Check out 99% of the posts I write, they're usually me yelling at somebody else for down-talking LPN's. BUT.....i think a big part of being a vocal advocate for "LPN respect" if you will is also realizing and respecting the differences in scope. I try to pay attention to both sides of that coin.
Thanks for the banter. This was thought-provoking. A good answer to 3rd-shifter off-night insomnia. Peace.
Eh, I never did LPN. I was convinced by someone who held the same opinion as I do now that RN is the way to go before I started school. I cant say for sure what the differences are in education.
I did leave out though, that the difference in our views may come from........you are talking about classroom nursing and I am talking about on the job.
Everyone will agree with me, the differences are documented, that classroom nursing or ideal "theory" nursing and on the job nursing are..............I wont even call them night and day........more like night and apples.
I believe, in theory, there is a big difference between LPN and RN. But on the unit, I dont see it so much. I just dont. I often aflict myself with the criticism that I am task oriented, maybe thats why I dont see it. IDK. I was told you had to practice 5 years before you really grasped the whole picture. I've been doing it for 3 1/2 years now. So, I still have a long way to get beyond the "critical thinking" hurdle, at least to the point where I am happy with myself.
Yeah, I hate care plans. Hate'em. Just paperwork for the state is all it is. I lose respect for anyone who tries to attach any more importance to them than that.
Eh, I never did LPN. I was convinced by someone who held the same opinion as I do now that RN is the way to go before I started school. I cant say for sure what the differences are in education.
I did leave out though, that the difference in our views may come from........you are talking about classroom nursing and I am talking about on the job.
Everyone will agree with me, the differences are documented, that classroom nursing or ideal "theory" nursing and on the job nursing are..............I wont even call them night and day........more like night and apples.
I believe, in theory, there is a big difference between LPN and RN. But on the unit, I dont see it so much. I just dont. I often aflict myself with the criticism that I am task oriented, maybe thats why I dont see it. IDK. I was told you had to practice 5 years before you really grasped the whole picture. I've been doing it for 3 1/2 years now. So, I still have a long way to get beyond the "critical thinking" hurdle, at least to the point where I am happy with myself.
Yeah, I hate care plans. Hate'em. Just paperwork for the state is all it is. I lose respect for anyone who tries to attach any more importance to them than that.
Ya know, if you're an RN that doesn't see the difference, then you are my new best friend. I've encountered FAR too many RN's who will spend an entire shift reminding me of my scope of practice like they're defending their territory. So it's a careful balance to strike - i'm not interested in being told my scope - I KNOW it already, and most likely better than THEY do. I actually find that I'm often asked to do something OUTSIDE of my scope of practice far more than i'm told NOT to do something that is within it. I have to know the difference just to protect myself, especially in this culture where employers want everything they can bleed out of you, every shift. Hence the reason why I'm so quick to point out the differences. Luckily, the RN's I work with on a REGULAR basis are for the most part GREAT and could care less about the initials on my badge...they just know that I'm busting my butt to become a good nurse.
And while i'm "new", I'm not so new to be unaware of the differences in classroom nursing and real-world nursing. I understood that after my first day of clinicals. I know I'm worth just as much as any other nurse, RN or LPN, on the floor (and in some cases, MORE, but that has everything to do with me being conscientious and thorough rather than the lpn vs. rn thing). And that "critical thinking" delineation is SUCH CRAP. If LPN's can't "think Critically", you tell me how I get thru every shift managing 30+ LT pts. Difference between "Day and...apples", indeed.
Ya know, if you're an RN that doesn't see the difference, then you are my new best friend. I've encountered FAR too many RN's who will spend an entire shift reminding me of my scope of practice like they're defending their territory. So it's a careful balance to strike - i'm not interested in being told my scope - I KNOW it already, and most likely better than THEY do. I actually find that I'm often asked to do something OUTSIDE of my scope of practice far more than i'm told NOT to do something that is within it. I have to know the difference just to protect myself, especially in this culture where employers want everything they can bleed out of you, every shift. Hence the reason why I'm so quick to point out the differences. Luckily, the RN's I work with on a REGULAR basis are for the most part GREAT and could care less about the initials on my badge...they just know that I'm busting my butt to become a good nurse.
And while i'm "new", I'm not so new to be unaware of the differences in classroom nursing and real-world nursing. I understood that after my first day of clinicals. I know I'm worth just as much as any other nurse, RN or LPN, on the floor (and in some cases, MORE, but that has everything to do with me being conscientious and thorough rather than the lpn vs. rn thing). And that "critical thinking" delineation is SUCH CRAP. If LPN's can't "think Critically", you tell me how I get thru every shift managing 30+ LT pts. Difference between "Day and...apples", indeed.
Or I could be your worst enemy. I'd be the one saying "Yeah, you can do that" when you cant.
My thing as an RN is if I have to work alongside an LPN and I'm told to cover something, I make sure I document on it. If I push IV pain meds for you, I almost do a H2T, document it, then document the reaction to the drug. Not because I dont trust that they are safe under an LPN, but because since I pushed the med, I will be the one they go after if something goes wrong (pt. falls not long after administration of IV pain med. etc). Its a fine line to walk for sure. LPNs are just as capable and are asked to do everything as though they are LPNs (as you pointed out) but when something goes wrong, the powers that be go after the RN. Not sure how it got that way.
I agree though. Any RN who holds out "critical thinking" out on a platter as a way to protect their territory is missing the point. Nurses DO NOT have a monopoly on this phenomenon of critical thinking. They are just the one's who talk about it most (hence, they get no credit for it), sort of like a teenager with an inferiority complex.
BUT.....i think a big part of being a vocal advocate for "LPN respect" if you will is also realizing and respecting the differences in scope. I try to pay attention to both sides of that coin.
Valerie Salva, BSN, RN
1,793 Posts
I was an LPN for several years before I became an RN.
In my experience, the difference between the two is huge.