non-verbal signs of painlesness

Specialties Emergency

Published

As nurses we are trained to look for and document non-verbal signs of pain.

I frequently have patients who complain of 8-10/10 pain while they are: ambulating without difficulty, no facial grimace, speaking clearly, have vitals WNL, etc. In addition, they might be eating, texting, etc. If you are reading this, and are an ER nurse, you know what I am talking about.

Frequently, these people are not given pain medication. It is important to me that my documentation reflects, in objective terms, how these people presented.

So- the same way that you might use a set phrases to show that a wound has no signs of infection, ie "edges well aproximated, sutures intact, no redness or swelling beyond the margins, no drainage or prurulent odor", I am looking for a list of pertinent negative that show that a pt has no objective signs of pain.

Any thoughts?

hherrn

PS- if you really feel the need to tell me that pain is what the pt says it is, or to relay a story about somebody who had untreated pain, go ahead. But it won't really help me in any way.

Specializes in Trauma, Teaching.
hi-

saying that most frequent patients with minor complaints have a lot of free time and pay nothing for the service isn't a matter of prejudice. it is a mathematical fact.

i may have a prejudice, as i do have a belief that i can't support with any objective facts: do you believe that a person with a previously diagnosed chronic problem would come into the er if it meant giving up something significant to them? maybe a month of cable, or a couple weeks of cigarettes? my thought, unsupported by any studies, is that they would not. i think that they would seek a more efficient form of treatment. if this belief constitutes a prejudice then you are right.

hherrn

it goes right back to pavlov: reward a behavior and it will be repeated. if i do this, and that happens repeatedly, i will continue to do this because i like the consequences (rewards). some of our chronic alcoholic homeless guys know exactly what to tell 911, and demand a sandwich as soon as they hit the door. i'm always torn between "feeding the hungry" and not rewarding their frequent (nightly) visits.

our er has a system that can be used on identified drug seekers; the docs and social workers review the charts, contact the primary, and identify in the system those to whom we are to refuse narcotics. occasionally they'll get a single dose of something, like 1 of dilaudid, but we tend to stick together on it. very frustrating when you get a doc that will give more anyway (after assessing and finding nothing new or acute of course).

Specializes in ER, Trauma, ICU/CCU/NICU, EMS, Transport.

THE MOST POWERFUL form of behavior modification is "INTERMITTENT POSITIVE RENIFORCEMENT"....

This would be the ED where 90% of the ED MD's DO NOT Rx narcs for your frequent flyers; but that 10% that does, exerts a powerful force.

it goes right back to pavlov: reward a behavior and it will be repeated. if i do this, and that happens repeatedly, i will continue to do this because i like the consequences (rewards). some of our chronic alcoholic homeless guys know exactly what to tell 911, and demand a sandwich as soon as they hit the door. i'm always torn between "feeding the hungry" and not rewarding their frequent (nightly) visits.

our er has a system that can be used on identified drug seekers; the docs and social workers review the charts, contact the primary, and identify in the system those to whom we are to refuse narcotics. occasionally they'll get a single dose of something, like 1 of dilaudid, but we tend to stick together on it. very frustrating when you get a doc that will give more anyway (after assessing and finding nothing new or acute of course).

well, it's a bit of a thread drift, but an interesting topic.

sounds like you have a decent system.

i have no problem when a doc decides not to give narcs for pain complaints. i don't think being completely pain free is a god given right. a huge part of the problem is that we give narcs for silly stuff- walk in on a sprain, walk out with narcotics. giving an obese pt with back pain narcs is like turning the radio up when a bad wheel bearing is making noise.

i strongly disagree with the 1 mg dilaudid (or similar) for somebody known to be a heavy narcotics user. the person either has a legitimate pain complaint or not. if they do not have a legitimate complaint, don't give narcs. period. not even a little. in fact, don't even give toradol. why give anything to somebody who doesn't have legit pain?

if the complaint is legit, then treat according to pt hx and condition. somebody with a high tolerance needs a lot of drugs. not treating a pain complaint may be a good call, but undertreating it never is. when i have a heavy user/addict, and i am given a range, i will always go on the high side of the range. i have had co-workers surprised. "why are you giving so much morphine to that guy? he's an addict." "because he's an addict."

i do agree with mboswell that periodic positive re-enforcement makes the problem much worse. i stick with my original statement that most of these folks have a lot of time on theit hands, and er visits cost them nothing. strictly from an economics point of view shopping doctors and er's pays off. even if you only score 1 out of 3 or 4, the pay off is good if you have more time than money.

and, for your reading enjoyment, some thoughts from the online community:

percocet is considered stronger than vicodin, but both will do the trick and i personally have always enjoyed the feeling from vicodin a little more.

both medications are available in 5mg, 7.5mg, and 10mg pills. each pill is mixed with about 500mg of tylenol, which isn't your liver's bestfriend, so if you can get the 10mg pills, go for it.

depending on your weight, i would start out with about 20mg. if 45 minutes to an hour passes and you're not really feeling it, go for another 10mg or 20mg.

if another 30 minutes passes with still no results, sorry, this just isn't the drug for you. it is possible to feel nothing on your first try, so you may want to try again in a couple days.

as far as price is concerned, you should be paying a maximum of $5 for a 10mg pill or $2.50 for a 5mg pill. generally 50 cents a milligram is considered acceptable. some people do charge between $8 and $10 for 10mg pills, but thats really overkill. it'd be easier to just go to your doctor and complain of backpain.

http://bbs.clubplanet.com/clubbing-other-areas/278366-percocet-vs-vicodin.html

my younger bro just bought a bunch of vicodin for about $5/mg. did he get ripped off? whats a reasonable price? (i hope om not breaking some forum rule here.

http://www.bombshock.com/forum/drugs/5807-vicodin-street-price.html

i just sole some tylenol 3 for 2 dollars a pill or 3 for 5 and vicodin is going for about 5 dollars a pill. my friend told me bout some new ibprofin(sp???) with codein(sp???) and he said he would by from me for 10 dollars a pill. i dont know what is so great about. but people want it. just my 2 cents.

p.s. if this is a cop i am j\k

wes

http://www.dtmpower.net/forum/archived-threads/38074-street-price-vicodin.html

it wont be easy to find a doc that will perscribe you oxycontin or hydromorphone for a "headach" if you go into an emergancy room compaining of it you may get a bottle of hydrocodone. try fakeing something that they perscribe painkillers more often. try fakeing something like back pain, depending on your age/situation, or say you fell down a flight of stairs. if you go to the emergency room, and really milk your "pain" for all its worth i doubt you will leave empty handed. and remember, your pain level is always a 9 ;-)

it wont be easy to find a doc that will perscribe you oxycontin or hydromorphone for a "headach" if you go into an emergancy room compaining of it you may get a bottle of hydrocodone. try fakeing something that they perscribe painkillers more often. try fakeing something like back pain, depending on your age/situation, or say you fell down a flight of stairs. if you go to the emergency room, and really milk your "pain" for all its worth i doubt you will leave empty handed. and remember, your pain level is always a 9 ;-)

and

most of the pain clinics and pain management doctors require real proof of your condition. this can be a major bummer if you're faking it. a female friend of mine however gets 320 15mg roxicodnes a month for a minor back injury (it doesn't seem to actually cause her pain)that she provided an x-ray for, so you never know. doctor shopping is fast becoming a thing of the past. occassionally i meet some kids hanging out in the tv-room (yeah we hang out there) of the needle exchange who give me names of doctors who supposedly write scripts for any ******** you make up, but i find leisurely junky talk to be dubious at best.

the one time i went to a doctor who i heard gave fentanyl patches to people who said they were trying to quit dope- he gave me neurontin, clonidine, and klonopin (waste of $125 dollars! no insurance here!).

http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8866

And, coming to an ER near you soon,,,,,,,

icon1.gif Oxycodone and Benadryl

Hey, I'm kinda new to the pill thing, but i have been been snorting ritalin and smoking weed for a while. I got some Oxycodones from my friend. can anybody tell me how much to take/ what it feels like.

I also want to learn how to take benadryl, so help would be AWSOME!

http://www.bombshock.com/forum/drugs/3301-oxycodone-benadryl.html

Specializes in Psych.

Back to the original question, I just document vital signs, nonverbal behaviors (texting is my favorite), and I love quotes. Especially if the patient is belligerent. If they are the slightest bit unruly I call security to have a talk with them and document this encounter and their "unwillingness to follow instructions". Common phrases found in my notes are:

Texting

Speaking with xray tech about last nights basketball game

Laughing and joking with friend at bedside

On laptop...cellphone...etc

Requesting food

Refusing food "There's no mayo for this sandwich...how can you expect me to eat this?...Don't you have any hot food around here?"

yada yada yada. Anywho, the docs are great at our facility and can pull up records quickly for drug seekers. They still get all the tests, but no narcotics. It's a nightmare for us nurses until we can kick them out but worth it because they get zip for pain. As for our homeless population who want food and come in by EMS we have an offload policy. The triage RN will quickly assess and if you can walk and talk you are offloaded into our waiting room and have to wait like everyone else. I never feed the homeless. We have alot of social service programs, food pantries, etc which they all know about and I will refer them to again. They do get water usually.

D

i agree with the op. i could have said it my self. im sure this may seem obvious to some but i was a light bulb for me, the FLACC scale will help with the painlessness symptoms and documentation. it gives a numerical number describing the pts behavior to compare to the rated pain scale.

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