New Nurse - safe practice question

Dixielee, BSN, RN · Jan 5, 2007

No, what you did was not unsafe practice but sounds like you may not have followed hospital policy. Sometimes I think policies are purely arbitrary and serve to help no one. You just have to learn what is OK in your hospital and what is not.

I worked at a large teaching hospital whose motto was: There is the right way, the wrong way and OUR way. Once you learn their way....no problem.

burnay76 · Jan 5, 2007

the thing that kills me is that there is no policy at the hospital directly relating to this drug or to IV infusion rates. The 22 guage is mentioned in policy as preferred for this type (intermittent) infusion. We are instructed by policy to refer to a nursing drug book - this max flow rateit is a unit custom - not written anywhere but apparently followed by "everyone". By the book I think I was 100% correct. How the heck is one to know?

Dixielee, BSN, RN · Jan 5, 2007

I agree you were 100% correct. Can you ask your nurse manager where the policy can be found or have you already? If you feel uncomfortable asking you might phrase it as you are trying to learn everything as fast as you can, but some things seem to be out of sync with what the drug book and other resources note.

It is not easy being a nurse, and even more difficult being a new nurse. Just go with the flow, try not to let the "pickiness" of others get to you, and know you are doing a good job.

We need more new nurses, somebody needs to be around to take care of us old ones as we fall apart! Thanks for being thorough.

CritterLover, BSN, RN · Jan 5, 2007

we run iv protonix over 15 min. comes labeled from the pharmacy that way, though i think it comes in 50 cc, rather than 100 cc.

as for running it too fast through a 22g, the only problem really would be if the size of the catheter prevented it from going that fast. really, unless you are using a power injector (like they do for some ct scans) or have high pressure limit on your iv pump set way high, the max rate for a particular size iv is self-limiting. that is, if you are trying to infuse something too fast, the iv catheter won't let you. if the rate is too high for the catheter size,l the pump will generate too much pressure in its attempt to infuse, causing the pump to alarm.

hope this makes sense.

i think i'd ask to see a copy of the policy you violated. since you were unable to find it, and it must exist , your supervisor needs to show it to you, and show you where to find it, in case you have questions in the future.

by the way, i work in an outpatient infusion center, and the vast majority of the ivs we start are 22g. i've never seen an 18g (we don't do blood), and a 20 g is rare. we're more likely to do 24s than 20s. we do many infusions that run faster than 200 cc/hr. in fact, the standard mix of vanomycin is in 250 cc ns, and it is usually run over one hour. if we run it through a peripheral line (central line is preferred, but we can do it through a piv for short-term), it is usually through a 22g, since the smaller catheter size allows blood flow aroud the iv catheter, causing better hemodilution of the vanc, and less risk of phlebitis.

so, that max rate on a 22 g may be hospital policy, though i'd doubt it until i saw it in writing. if it really is policy, it really needs to be changed!

burnay76 · Jan 5, 2007

Thanks for the encouraging words Dixie. This all comes at a time when I'm starting to discover how backbiting some of the staff can be and how quickly they jump to the conclusions about me and seem to want me to not fit in there (apparently some of the staff is not comfortable that I am comfortable there, I'm a new nurse but have been in hospitals for years). It's unfortunate bacause it is a great hospital. I can deal with all that, but I really took the unsafe practice accusation to heart.

I have emailed the issue to our unit educator for feedback since I am not sure what my manager is thinking.

burnay76 · Jan 5, 2007

I understand 100% Critter and thanks for the insight. I knew I wasn't crazy

Dixielee, BSN, RN · Jan 5, 2007

I have emailed the issue to our unit educator for feedback since I am not sure what my manager is thinking.

I hate to mention this, but it is a fact of life, but be careful when going "above or around" your nurse manager for information, especially if it may contradict what she may have told you. You do have to look at the politics of the situation, even when there should be none.

You are only looking for clarification on patient care and safe practice, but your manager may see it as going behind her back. Just be careful. Sometimes you have to tip toe around some issues.

It is not like our job is not hard enough, but we also have to be careful not to step on the tender feelings of some around us (I say that with a large degree of sarcasm, but it really is true).

Good luck, and keep on keeping on. Sometimes the price is too high for proving you were right. Knowing it for yourself has to be enough.

annmariern · Jan 5, 2007

fifteen minute infusion

protonix i.v. for injection should be reconstituted with 10 ml of 0.9% sodium chloride injection, usp, and further diluted (admixed) with 100 ml of 5% dextrose injection, usp, 0.9% sodium chloride injection, usp, or lactated ringer’s injection, usp, to a final concentration of approximately 0.4 mg/ml. the reconstituted solution may be stored for up to 2 hours at room temperature prior to further dilution; the admixed solution may be stored for up to 22 hours at room temperature prior to intravenous infusion. both the reconstituted solution and the admixed solution do not need to be protected from light.

i learned something tonight, pharmacy told me to give over 60 mins. personally, wouldn't give it at 200/hr through a 22, learned the hard way, unless its a emergent med, why risk blowing the line? agree with the last post; not worth the confrontation. unless it was written up. if it was you have the right of reply at least. usually though, it just isn't worth the trouble. you didn't harm your patient at all. and you the back up to prove it. sometimes its better to pick your battles carefully because as a new nurse, you need your co-worker's support. hell we all do:sniff:

burnay76 · Jan 5, 2007

I understand what you mean by the politics. I actually sent the question to my manager as well and let her know I was seeking furher information from the unit educator because I still didn't understand where to get the info and why I was "wrong".

I guess it does make sense to do it at a slower rate, and I will in the future - I was just distressed by the accusation of unsafe practice

thanks everyone for the insight and advice

miko014 · Jan 5, 2007

Call me crazy, but we are a teaching hospital too, and we push many IV meds - we mix our IV protonix in 10CC and push over 2-3 minutes. Also, some of our higher dose vanco and even some chemo drugs run at up to 500 an hour (uaually they only go for one hour). We use 22s, 20s, and rarely 18s (we do give a lot of blood, but you can give blood through a 20). We also have a lot of central lines, PICCs, ports, etc. I guess I just don't get the connection - what does being a teaching hospital have to do with the IV rate?

nursemary9, BSN, RN · Jan 5, 2007

Call me crazy, but we are a teaching hospital too, and we push many IV meds - we mix our IV protonix in 10CC and push over 2-3 minutes. Also, some of our higher dose vanco and even some chemo drugs run at up to 500 an hour (uaually they only go for one hour). We use 22s, 20s, and rarely 18s (we do give a lot of blood, but you can give blood through a 20). We also have a lot of central lines, PICCs, ports, etc. I guess I just don't get the connection - what does being a teaching hospital have to do with the IV rate?

I also work at a Large Teaching hospital--Level 1 trauma Center. we give MANY IV Push drugs, fewer IVPB.

We do most of the vanco over 1 hr.

I am Chemo/Onc/hem. as the above poster said, we give many chemo infusions over 1 hr--large volumes.

Mary Ann