New Independent Here!

[flowerchild]

They say opportunity only comes rarely. I can't believe what I have fallen into. I have already written a complete bussiness plan for private HHC company, shopped it, got positive feedback, then backed out b/c I didn't want to be chained to this business 24/7. So now, here it is 4 years later, I love my current job, don't want to leave it, and plan on retirement through the state---someday, and opportunity just came my way! I faxed out three resumes yesterday, got two responses immediatly, set up one interview for that afternoon, and took a position working on the side of my regular job doing high tech HHC visits. Then, the owner of the company offers me a partnership! I have done alot of business development over the years for other people on a salary. He's agreed to give me 50% profit on any business I bring in! That's such a good business move on this his part and a great opportunity for me. After the nurse is paid to do the visit, I'll get 1/2 the profit!!!! WooHoo! I get use of his office staff, phones, office, and business cards! He has all the employees set up, nursing staff, etc!!! All the hard work is mostly done!

I have become an empowered nurse! An independent contractor! I'm so excited!!! He's been at this for 8 years and already is successful as far as I can tell. He's intellegent and a good business person IMO to offer this. He'll get 50% for doing very little work himself! The office is 1 1/2 blocks from my home to boot! What a break!

Here's where I could use feedback/advise, I want to get this all in writting and signed by both parties. So far everything has been verbal and I want to protect myself here. Besides the usual things that I know go into the contract ie: Names, dates, basic agreement between two parties verbage, and rates for pay. What else should I be including or thinking about here?

I've got malpractice insurance, all my legal ducks in a row, know about taxes, etc. and being self employed. But, I want to be sure I set this up right. Any and all advice, words of wisdom, encouragement, is greatly accepted and appreciated!

[nightingale, RN]

Indie:

You MUST tell us more sometime... I am still in a very high learning curve myself.

[ocnurse]

be careful and get insurance. if you kill someone, whos liable? you are! that's where having a corporate umbrella definately helps. have you ever thought of going "agency perdiem" have its perks: comperable income, no tax evasion accusations, and full insurance coverage, as well as your normal tax return. think about it.

[ArmyKitten]

Hey ocnurse- I see that you are new. First, welcome!! Second- you see the top left corner of the post? It has the date of the post listed. You replied to a post from 2003. Nothing wrong with that, just wanted to make sure you realized :)

Again, welcome :)

[nursemicke]

Congratulations flowerchild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your EARNED it. I wish you great success.

This forum is for learning so other nurses can EARN their own success. It is also a great forum for encouragment and support.

[nightingale, RN]

Congratulations flowerchild!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Your EARNED it. I wish you great success.

This forum is for learning so other nurses can EARN their own success. It is also a great forum for encouragment and support.

Yes, yes... older posts, some of them.. but still so timely...

nursemicke: I have MiSSED YOU; what have you been up to girl?

How about an update on you and whoever sees this post, on this link (here on allNurses... it is nice to see the progress);

https://allnurses.com/forums/f56/calling-all-nurse-entrepreneurs-24358.html

[eddy]

An old thread comes back to life.

No offense and I want to stress I don't mean this to be personal or insulting, but to say that an agency exploits nurses is rather absurd. Not every nurse wishes to be an IC. In fact, the vast majority chooses not to be. Instead, they choose to work directly for facilities or for agencies. A big reason for this is that groups of employees have access to lower cost benefits than their IC counterparts. An IC might bill more than an agency employee is paid, but they also have significantly higher expenses and higher risk levels.

Also, saying agencies fail to empower nurses is really a non-applicable statement at best. At it's worst, it could be plain wrong. How do they do a worse job in nurse empowerment than facility counterparts? Do you as an IC empower anyone but yourself? Are you saying the nursing world would be better if every nurse was an IC? Would that REALLY be empowering nurses? While some IC's have obviously done well for themselves, I would argue that many of them would have been further ahead or equally well off financially had they not gone the IC route. The problem you have on Internet forums is that often times you only hear the good side, as those who have had some degree of success (at least in their own eyes, which may not even be the reality) are the only ones talking. Others that have tried and found it not for them or even failed don't bother. Why? Because their interests now lie elsewhere.

I'm not saying that becoming an IC is a bad idea. However, I am saying it might not be the best one either. It depends on many factors. Back to my point though. I still fail to see how an agency (which is an employer merely offering options beyond traditional staff employment) exploits nurses. More choices, better pay and solid benefits doesn't seem to equate to exploitation to me.

I've been an agency nurse for about 8 years full time. At one point I considered becoming a contractor and researched it to death. I chose not to because I can make roughly the same money but without all of the "extra" work and risk associated with being self-employed in this line of work. My agency works for ME. They, in turn, make some money off of my work. This is not unlike any other job. The only difference is that I make a lot more money and enjoy greater options and flexibility than my fellow nurses working staff jobs.

Take care all. Just my two cents and not intended to offend.

[nightingale, RN]

hmmmmmmmm...

[HarryHK]

OK, I'm going to have to take offense. It sounds like your sole purpose here on the nurse entrepreneurs forum is to tell us that we are better off being employees! That is patently offensive, insulting, and untrue.

A. Your premise is that employees are better off than small business owners? Show me how many employee nurses are millionaires or even make 6 figures?

B. The fact that most people do not post their negative results means that success is unlikely? Is this a serious argument? Are you aware that perhaps the majority of successful agencies were started by nurses? I think they too have better things to do than post here.

C. Higher expenses for an independent? Exactly the opposite is true. The bigger an agency gets, the less able they are able to compete with smaller agencies in wages. I can promise you that my cost of doing business is a fraction of that of larger agencies by any yardstick.

D. Better benefits for large groups of employees? Again, be specific. Retirement, no. Insurance, maybe. But an interesting switch has occurred in America. It used to be that private insurance cost more than employer sponsored group health. That is not true anymore. Other benefits? Well who better than the independent to arrange the exact benefits pretax than themselves? Benefits that no large company could even think about providing. How about deductible aspirin and mileage to the drugstore to pick it up?

E. Agencies empower nurses? How? I will agree with you that it is similar to any other employment situation, including hospitals. But to argue or even imply that it is more empowering than owning your own business is again without merit.

So you have failed to become an independent. And given up. Why would you come here to an entrepreneurs forum to tell others not to try? If it is not for you, just drop it. I'm not sure you get the idea of a supportive forum. I know personally a couple dozen IC nurses. All are much better off than the equivalent employee. All of their respective agencies work only for THEM.

I have been an independent for three years now. In each of those three years, I put more in the bank than I was able to do in 12 years as an employee. I have every year helped a couple fellow nurses to become independent. It is not hard, expensive, or risky. But you are correct that it is not for everyone. The vast majority of nurses out there will always be employees, either through temperament, ability, or circumstances. People who come here do not want to be wage slaves anymore and should be supported.

[nightingale, RN]

Well, HarryHK, I am glad someone has reponded to rebuttle the tone that a Nurse as an "employee" is better then an Independent, Nurse Entrepreneur. So far so good in making "I" statements but I am concerned this "could" turn into something else, so...

Please note:

I do ask, as a Staff Member, that WE all realize we must keep it to the topic and not allow this to be personal (as in towards someone) and that WE speak from the position of I or in reference to our own experience.

[nightingale, RN]

OK, I'm going to have to take offense. It sounds like your sole purpose here on the nurse entrepreneurs forum is to tell us that we are better off being employees! That is patently offensive, insulting, and untrue.

A. Your premise is that employees are better off than small business owners? Show me how many employee nurses are millionaires or even make 6 figures?

B. The fact that most people do not post their negative results means that success is unlikely? Is this a serious argument? Are you aware that perhaps the majority of successful agencies were started by nurses? I think they too have better things to do than post here.

C. Higher expenses for an independent? Exactly the opposite is true. The bigger an agency gets, the less able they are able to compete with smaller agencies in wages. I can promise you that my cost of doing business is a fraction of that of larger agencies by any yardstick.

D. Better benefits for large groups of employees? Again, be specific. Retirement, no. Insurance, maybe. But an interesting switch has occurred in America. It used to be that private insurance cost more than employer sponsored group health. That is not true anymore. Other benefits? Well who better than the independent to arrange the exact benefits pretax than themselves? Benefits that no large company could even think about providing. How about deductible aspirin and mileage to the drugstore to pick it up?

E. Agencies empower nurses? How? I will agree with you that it is similar to any other employment situation, including hospitals. But to argue or even imply that it is more empowering than owning your own business is again without merit.

So you have failed to become an independent. And given up. Why would you come here to an entrepreneurs forum to tell others not to try? If it is not for you, just drop it. I'm not sure you get the idea of a supportive forum. I know personally a couple dozen IC nurses. All are much better off than the equivalent employee. All of their respective agencies work only for THEM.

I have been an independent for three years now. In each of those three years, I put more in the bank than I was able to do in 12 years as an employee. I have every year helped a couple fellow nurses to become independent. It is not hard, expensive, or risky. But you are correct that it is not for everyone. The vast majority of nurses out there will always be employees, either through temperament, ability, or circumstances. People who come here do not want to be wage slaves anymore and should be supported.

Harry, I agree with your passion and your data. I have never felt so liberated, empowered, and in control of my own destiny as in my roll as a Nurse Entrepreneur. Granted, it is not for everyone...

I like to compare being an employee with being a renter; I compare being a Nurse Entrepreneur / Business Owner with being a home owner. There is a lot more responsibility but the rewards are ten fold (both financially and spiritually).

I see a stark difference in attitude of myself with other Nurses when I hear things said like, "I am not taking this or that seminar or extra certification because Facility X will not pay for it" (and this is regarding information that would make this person be a better involved and more aware Care Giver). Every expense I make as an Entrepreneur is instantly reinforced as a smart business decision because "I" take ownership for my business, skills, and reputation. How many times (ugh) have we heard, "I will not get my BSN because I am not paid more"! :chair:

Just my HO...

[HarryHK]

And it is a good humble opinion! There certainly is a difference in attitude and ownership of your profession between employees and independents. Shouldn't be, but it's there!

I did not even get into the personal rewards of ownership but I have certainly mentioned them in other post in this forum. I keep having to rebut such small picture items that the larger picture is sometimes lost. There are a lot of small business owners (small shopkeepers come to mind readily) who could make more as an employee but prefer to work for themselves. Because of the control and satisfaction that it gives them over their lives.

Thanks for the light touch or "moderate" moderation. Believe me, I was quite restrained in my reply. I was indeed angry and my reply may have implied that the original poster was an idiot. I'm sure he is not, he just has different views about the value of, and indeed the motivations of independent contracting than do we.

[eddy]

OK, I'm going to have to take offense.

Hmmm...

To clarify, my post was in response to Indie's comments in regard to agencies exploiting nurses, which I expressed my disagreement. I'm sorry you chose to take offense HarryHK.

I think it's only fair to you that I address your "itemized" issues one by one.

It sounds like your sole purpose here on the nurse entrepreneurs forum is to tell us that we are better off being employees! That is patently offensive, insulting, and untrue.

My "sole purpose" for viewing and at times posting in the entrepreneurs forum is to see what enterprising nurses are doing, learn and even share some of my own knowledge and experience along the way. I prefer to share a balanced outlook in terms of business ownership. I've owned several businesses myself for a decade and a half, and I am very pro-entrepreneur. Likewise, I am also pro-employee and pro-common sense. Being a success as an IC in particular is impacted on a number of factors. Some of those factors clearly rule it out for some people. Others, not, and they can do quite well.

A. Your premise is that employees are better off than small business owners? Show me how many employee nurses are millionaires or even make 6 figures?

My "premise" is that business ownership is not always a piece of cake, and has more promise of making you bankrupt than a millionaire if you do not properly educate yourself. You should be informed and educated prior to jumping in. There are many laws, regulations, ethical issues and tax considerations that come into play when owning your own business.

B. The fact that most people do not post their negative results means that success is unlikely? Is this a serious argument?

With all due respect, I didn't say that. Perhaps you should reread my post and reconsider what I, in fact, did say... And I wasn't arguing. Are you? I said that the likelihood of someone sharing their failure here is slim.

You can often times learn more from someone else's failure than you can from others shouting their own praises.

Are you aware that perhaps the majority of successful agencies were started by nurses? I think they too have better things to do than post here.

Are you aware? I'm not. I can't agree or disagree with that as I don't know of any public data pro or con. What I can say is that this particular statement of yours really has no relation to my prior post which WAS "I don't believe agencies exploit nurses". Interesting though, that it seems you are pro-nurse owned agencies. I guess that's because you feel they don't exploit nurses??? I don't get it. You later say they DO. ????

C. Higher expenses for an independent? Exactly the opposite is true. The bigger an agency gets, the less able they are able to compete with smaller agencies in wages. I can promise you that my cost of doing business is a fraction of that of larger agencies by any yardstick.

Okay. Again, I didn't say anything about higher expenses in my post in this thread. Why do keep insisting on putting words in my mouth? However you are not correct in your statements. Economies of scale apply here. A large employer has more resources and SUBSTANTIALLY greater bargaining power than you, as a single IC do. That's a fact. It has the benefit of substantially less expensive GROUP benefits for instance. The list goes on, but is that really needed?

Depending on a number of factors, you may come out further ahead as an IC, or you may come out further ahead as an employee. Surely you can understand that??? Now, THAT is what I said in my post. I apologize if you read something that simply wasn't there.

D. Better benefits for large groups of employees? Again, be specific. Retirement, no. Insurance, maybe. But an interesting switch has occurred in America. It used to be that private insurance cost more than employer sponsored group health. That is not true anymore. Other benefits? Well who better than the independent to arrange the exact benefits pretax than themselves? Benefits that no large company could even think about providing. How about deductible aspirin and mileage to the drugstore to pick it up?

You state opinions but not facts. For instance, I have a 401k with my agency. They match 100% of my contributions. In other words, I double my money the first day I "invest" it. I get FREE top tier BCBS insurance. I get a free $25,000 life insurance policy. I get free AAA membership. Free dental. Free vision. All pre-tax benefits. I also get a post tax benefit in paid time off (free money after taxes). How much do you pay for your benefits? Of course they are tax DEDUCTIBLE for you, but unlike you, I don't have to SPEND money to get them tax free. You are correct that it has become SLIGHTLY easier to obtain health insurance as an individual, but you will more than likely have higher deductibles than you would in a group plan. You will definitely pay more (higher premiums) than a group, unless you have very marginal insurance. Deductible aspirin??? I can see how that 89 cents per 200 caps can really add up! You must get a lot of headaches. Of course, I can do that too through my FSA/HSA. If you aren't running it through one you are committing tax fraud on your aspirin by the way. I itemize on my taxes, so I also get to deduct my work related mileage. Yay for me!

E. Agencies empower nurses? How? I will agree with you that it is similar to any other employment situation, including hospitals. But to argue or even imply that it is more empowering than owning your own business is again without merit.

I didn't argue that it empowered them. Jeez. I said I failed to see how it EXPLOITED them. I also said I disagree that it FAILS to empower them.

Webster Dictionary's definition of empowerment (I can't believe I have to do this)...

empower

v 1: give or delegate power or authority to; "She authorized her assistant to sign the papers" [syn: authorise, authorize] 2: give qualities or abilities to [syn: endow, indue, gift, invest, endue]

I have the authority to CHOOSE when and where I want to work and when I don't feel like working at all. Now that I think about it, I guess I AM more empowered as an agency nurse vs. a staff nurse. Good for me. Though, I didn't SAY that in my previous post regardless.

So you have failed to become an independent. And given up.

Failed? Are you kidding? I CHOSE not to. You don't need to be disrespectful.

Why would you come here to an entrepreneurs forum to tell others not to try? If it is not for you, just drop it.

So, it's best to only present the glowing endorsement side of being an IC? You're obviously upset. I'm sorry. You need to understand the difference between presenting a balanced view of entrepreneurship vs. bullish optimism. It's work. It's a lifestyle altering decision. It's one not to be taken lightly. Can we agree on that? And, I didn't say not to try. Where are you getting this stuff?

I'm not sure you get the idea of a supportive forum. I know personally a couple dozen IC nurses. All are much better off than the equivalent employee. All of their respective agencies work only for THEM.

I'm not sure you understand my prior post.

For what it's worth to your HarryHK, I am very supportive of entrepreneurs, but I do believe they should base decisions on good, solid information rather than self-endorsing forum posts that are all too common on boards of this ilk.

I have been an independent for three years now. In each of those three years, I put more in the bank than I was able to do in 12 years as an employee.

Right. If you say so, I'll have to take your word for it, but I have my strong doubts on that.

I have every year helped a couple fellow nurses to become independent. It is not hard, expensive, or risky. But you are correct that it is not for everyone. The vast majority of nurses out there will always be employees, either through temperament, ability, or circumstances. People who come here do not want to be wage slaves anymore and should be supported.

I applaud your efforts, but you are misleading people if you say it is not hard, expensive or risky. There absolutely is risk. It potentially could be ALL of those if they follow THAT kind of logic. Let's be honest here.

To close, I have been an entrepreneur most of my life. I am also an educated accountant, financial consultant and business advisor (of 15 years) as well as a nurse. I have owned several very successful businesses that produced millions of dollars per year in revenue prior to selling them for substantial amounts of money. I started many of them on shoe-string budgets. I have seen the ups and the downs. Thank God, mostly ups. However, that's because I made sound, rational decisions. I also helped a great deal of people in their entrepreneurial persuits, and it's one of the things I am most proud of in my life.

I thoroughly enjoy discussing business and helping others. Please have the respect not to assume otherwise simply because you disagree with what I say. Moderation is a good thing friend.