New Independent Here!

nightingale, RN · Oct 8, 2003

:) Congratulations FlowerChild :)

For starters, I would ask what if scenarios and think specifics and provide a general catch all should things go belly up. Possibly to give you a 6 month or so window to back out if it just not a positive relationship for you two.

I will ponder this today and check back in with you.

There is no over stating the benefits of having an Attorney and Accountant (CPA) look over your contract.... perhaps a business consultant is available too. I have a business consultant, whome I met through the business Entreprenuer class I took last year help me with my books and she helps me problem solve at her consulting fee of $ 60 and hour. Do it all and follow you gut.

Till later and again... congratulations and welcome to the world of Entrepreneurship

indie · Oct 9, 2003

I think it's congratulations to you, but you are still in a business which, to an arguable extent, is exploiting nurses.

An agency does not empower nurses across the board, although it might be doing that for you as a partner. Your 'profit' sharing comes from what the nurses could earn between themselves as independent contractors if they had the necessary 'strength, will or knowledge' to get organized into a Professional Practice Group - to borrow a phrase from a definition of nursing care.

I have mixed feelings about what you are doing.

hazydaz · Oct 9, 2003

:roll

Right on Indie! While it's a great situation for you, it's not advancing nurses in general or the profession. Everyone wants to make money but it needs to be for nurses across the board. Now that you are in a position of power, authority and profit, I hope you will do something to bring other nurses up in the world as well.

flowerchild · Oct 9, 2003

Hello indie,

I never thought of it that way. hmm. I see it as empowerment in nursing still. The owners are a husband and wife team, they are RN's. I feel worthy of the offer in that I deserve it, over someone who does not have the same expertise. Due to my eperience, education, current and past positions I have everything to fit the need of this agency. My past experience includes: DON of a HHC agency, Nursing Supervisor of a MCA provider agency, community liason-HHC, Director of Admissions for Rehab facility, Director of Marketing for two LTC and Rehab facilities, Quality Manager, preceptor, staff nurse, case manager, wound care specialist, urology nurse, diabetic educator, high tech nurse, etc, etc, etc,,,,So tell me why all nurses should be offered the same opportunity if they do not have the background and/or ability to network and do the business development. I know this business. I have a 25 page business plan for the exact same type agency as I am in negotiations with. I shopped the plan, received positive feedback and potential investors, then backed out b/c I don't want to be a 24/7, tied to my work kind of person. This deal is so perfect for me.

I am doing exactly what you are saying we need to do to empower nurses. I'm teaming up with two other nurses to provide care and services for FEE FOR SERVICE! YIPEE! Sounds like a professional practice group to me. This is exactly what we need to do, imo. He is happy to know he has someone who can run the business while he and his partner wife take a vacation. These folks have not had a day off together in a extremly long time. I'll be doing all the visits over the weekend and now he can finally get a day off.

Now, I say that every nurse has the opportunity, same as I have done, to get the education and experience and go for it.

If you want all nurses across the board to be offered independent contractor positions that include profit sharing, then there must be those who do it first, and the more who take the same route, the more opportunities will exist. BUT, not everyone would want this. I love the benefits that I have right now at my day job and if forced to choose between the two I'll keep the low paying day job with benes over the riskier HHC. Being an independent contractor basically means you are in business for yourself, and with that comes risks that many people would not be comfortable dealing with on a daily basis. This deal is totally up to me to work. I will have to "hit the pavement" on a daily basis to develop the business. I will write plans and set goals and identify targets. I will be doing this for no money. My pay off will come only after I close the deals and get all the contracts signed. Then I will have to maintain those contracts and relationships to get the referrals. This is hard work and not everybody is cut out for it. It can be very dificult to continue working the leads when you have no yes answers. Or worse you get the contract after months of working the lead and then get no referrrals. So, why shouldn't I get a profit share in a situation like this? How can this possibly be the wrong thing to be doing? Especially in light of my talking with a few nurses, who also work low pay jobs, that are very interested in making great money doing visits and hourly HHC cases. It's really a win, win, win situation. I'm sure if any other nurse has the same inclination this agency would offer the same to them as they did for me.

Empowerment in nursing will only come when nurses take it and use it to our own advantage. JMHO.

PS, sorry my post is so long, I tend to get carried away sometimes esp when I'm as tired as I am right now.

flowerchild · Oct 9, 2003

Thank you nightngale for the sound advice. I will need to consult a lawyer and my own CPA. I really didn't want to spend the money but you are right. Thanks for helping me do this smart.

Funny how I finally feel like I'm getting my life back in order and someone wants to rain on my parade. boo.

indie · Oct 9, 2003

Flowerchild:

My post did not denigrate you, your expertise, or what it takes to be offered the opportunity you have right now.

I too know how much it takes to be an Independent Contractor and I have often posted about it taking more than expertise and experience. A certain tenacity, willingness to put in the hours on education etc. etc. is what you have and it's paying off.

My post was/is not personal; I certainly don't want any RN being handed an IC contract on a plate - that will actually devalue the IC position and special expertise we are usually bringing to the arena. I have recently posted at independentRN.com (bulletin board only open to members) about not wanting to share my contract(s) because I feel there is so much value in the process of learning how to do it.

We share more values than you might think. But my original post stands in principle still. If you really are all you say you are, you will empower other nurses working for the agency and act as a role model for their entrepreneurial spirit. That's the positive side to your new role.

But I still know that associating with an agency (even as an RN) offers very limited benefits to other RNs, patients, the profession of nursing and, eventually, to you.

And what is this about 'rain on my parade'. That sounded an alarm in me - are you really developmentally ready for this IC position?

Do you only post here for strokes and support? Isn't a certain amount of thoughtful criticism going to help you to grow?

(And this is not sour grapes from me either - I've been hugely successful and happy just giving expert patient care/teaching over 30 years, usually as an IC. I'm a Medi-Cal Independent Nurse Provider in my own right; not with an agency.)

nightingale, RN · Oct 9, 2003

Originally posted by indie
Flowerchild:
I too know how much it takes to be an Independent Contractor and I have often posted about it taking more than expertise and experience. A certain tenacity, willingness to put in the hours on education etc. etc. is what you have and it's paying off.

My post was/is not personal; I certainly don't want any RN being handed an IC contract on a plate - that will actually devalue the IC position and special expertise we are usually bringing to the arena. I have recently posted at independentRN.com (bulletin board only open to members) about not wanting to share my contract(s) because I feel there is so much value in the process of learning how to do it.

But I still know that associating with an agency (even as an RN) offers very limited benefits to other RNs, patients, the profession of nursing and, eventually, to you.

I am in Total agreement on the tenacity component in Entrepreneurship!

Regarding Agency Nursing, my experience has been different. Oh yes, there are many, if not most, agencies who would like to get from Us as much as we will give (and we are such a giving population); but there are also Agencies who will listen to us and work with what we want and need. The key is being assertive and not settling for what is offered.

I currently, subcontract, my nursing services to several Agencies as a Vendor. Would I make more as a direct contractor, YES. I have knocked on many doors to obtain this goal; sometimes I am successful and sometimes not. Quite frankly, the Agencies I do work for have the contract, pay me under their billable, make their profit off of my sweat etc... My Corp. pays me a salary, my corp., gains, I gain etc... The key is their contract is in place and I am still trying to get in a door. Sometimes it is worth it to make a few dollars less.

Now, I do also directly contract but.... I have a problem with a long term commitment and my situation is unique and specific for my needs.... it works for me...

As I see it, whatever works... My subcontracting allows for my scheduling flexibility when I want to do PRN work at facilities.

I have added this comment so others can see there are many options. Again, the tenacity issue is key....

I started with a plan A, with thoughts and some success on a plan B, when plan A did not always work out. I also always have thoughts on a plan C.

As has been previously stated in other posts I have made, I started with taking an Entrepreneural Class through the local Small Business Association. Please take the time to do a search or just read through this Forum and you will gain from the many valuable posters on this Forum....

There is not one of us who can think as well as all of us...

Thank you to all for this dialogue and learning oppourtunity...

nightingale, RN · Oct 9, 2003

quote from indie:

Do you only post here for strokes and support? Isn't a certain amount of thoughtful criticism going to help you to grow?

-------------

Agreed as well.... Tenacity and self evlauation is key... we are allowed to be human though....

Remember though... to all. Do not take any of this personal...

We are a supportive group. Critism is to be taken as someones view on a matter; let's keep it focused on that.

------A Moderator--------

hazydaz · Oct 9, 2003

:roll

Flowerchild, I didn't mean to rain on your parade and I am sorry you took things personally. I think it is great "you" have this opportunity and I think you should take it and work it. I am hoping you will not turn into the "agency" we all despise and exploit other nurses. I am hoping you will find other nurses and give them the same deal, 100X over, what you have been given.

I just recently inc. and started working IC. I love it. I talk to others in town who are looking to do the same, have a basic idea of what they want to do and how to do it, and then I share what I have and know and we network. There are many of us and the number is growing. I only hope you will do the same and better. There were those before me who helped tremendously and I am doing the same in turn. Pulling ourselves up is good and it's better when we pull others up with us.

nightingale, RN · Oct 9, 2003

Originally posted by hazydaz
:roll

There are many of us and the number is growing. I only hope you will do the same and better. There were those before me who helped tremendously and I am doing the same in turn. Pulling ourselves up is good and it's better when we pull others up with us.

Oh yeah (as in ya)! The opportunities on this board are tremendous in networking and being an honest feedback link and support.

:roll :roll :roll

indie · Oct 10, 2003

Good balance in your postings, Nightingale. Yes indeed, there are many ways to do right by ourselves, our profession and our patients.

There are also many ways to be an IC and I have tried quite a few of them myself.

Flowerchild: Let us know how you are doing over time.