Negotiating?

emtneel · Apr 4, 2008

Or if there was a way to even negotiate a monday or friday off say maybe 2 times/month.

If I used my 2 weeks vaca to do that, i could never really have a vaca.

He said there are 2 "free" days (in addition to the holidays) you get but that seems pretty minimal to me.

He said 8 hours/month sick time, but said people were abusing it ( ie. using for other than illness) and were going to maybe revise that. (I'm rarely sick so what would i do with 12 sick days/year?)

Oh BTW i didn't ask about any of this, it was the CEO and he offered the info without any prompting from me, that would have been something i wouldn't ask until face-to-face interview.

oh and otherwise i really like a lot of things about this job, they serve underserved, sounds like a good environment, good mentoring for new grad etc..

core0 · Apr 4, 2008

So I had a phone interview for a job that sounds pretty good.
Only thing is only 2 weeks vaca ( i currently get 3 weeks as a RN) He said increases with yrs. CME 1700 and 5days.
Job is M-F 8-5, he said there is flexibility in that you could come in at 8:30-5 and just take 30min lunch...
I would REALLY like to only work 4 days, whether 4 (8,9,10 hour days) I really don't care. I just feel like I have been going to school for so long (since HS, with not much relief) also working a lot of that time, I just don't want to work to death.
This clinic doesn't currently have extended hours and is only open 8-5 M-F.
I know many NP's work 4 days/week.
Now this job also has NO call and NO weekends.
Is this something I can even negotiate on? I would definitely take less pay to be able to work 4 days.
I am also getting to the point that I just really want a job, and don't want to lose the chance if they definitely only want to hire someone who will work that specific schedule.
It will just be VERY hard to go from 3 day/week (32hour) schedule to 5 day/week. Its okay that you get holidays off, but really makes no difference to me since, you can't even go to bank or post office, or your own appt. on holidays.
I recognize this is probably something to talk about AFTER a job offer has been made, but how would you go about negotiating something like this?

Go to your local bookstore and get "Negotiating Your Salary: How to Make $1000 a Minute" by Jack Chapman. Hands down the best book on Salary negotiation. I wish I had read this 8 years ago.

As far as the days, you have no seen the ugly side of salaried vs. hourly wage. Have they had an NPP in this slot before? Realistically you are talking a 50 hour work week (pretty standard). I also question the flexible schedule. Usually you have patient slots scheduled every so often (say 30 minutes) and they start at a certain time. So if you come in at 8:30 either they lose a slot (and payment) or there is a ****** off patient waiting for you in the room.

Everything is negotiable in a contract. It all depends on whether their structure can accommodate the negotiation. Take 4/10's for example. Scheduling patients from 8-5 with a one hour lunch is a good schedule with an hour on each end for administrative time. However, this means that the clinic either has to find someone to work the day that you aren't or they have to forgo that day (with the accompanied patient revenue and patient satisfaction). One way to do this might be to meet them half way and ask for a half day on Fridays. This gets you out early on Fridays while still getting days covered. Also who covers for you if you are out sick or on vacation? These are just as important.

Like I said start with "Negotiating Your Salary" - highly recommended.

David Carpenter, PA-C

yellow finch, BSN, RN · Apr 4, 2008

Go to your local bookstore and get "Negotiating Your Salary: How to Make $1000 a Minute" by Jack Chapman. Hands down the best book on Salary negotiation. I wish I had read this 8 years ago.
David Carpenter, PA-C

So glad to hear this! I just bought it last night online! I've never negotiated jobs/salaries... hoping some books will help me get some thoughts together.

emtneel · Apr 5, 2008

As far as the days, you have no seen the ugly side of salaried vs. hourly wage

David, what do you mean by this?

with the flexible schedule, my understanding how he explained is you would work 30min of your lunch and only take 30 for lunch.

They have 1 MD and 1 PA at the clinic now and are trying to replace a NP who is leaving for the mission field.

Also do you mean i will really probably be working 7-6pm? :uhoh21:

He said the other providers cover for you on vaca, I'm not sure if pts have their own provider per se, it is a community health clinic.

Yeah I have thought about the 1/2 day thing, would be better than nothing, and I don't plan on this being the end all be all, and i could live with that for at least 1-2 yrs.

Oh one more question, if you have time.

(I had another phone interview with another job in an internal medicine clinic. This one said they could work with 4 day week schedule, take mostly insurance (not underserved) they have had NP's before but not in this position. Would be working with a specific Doc, wouldn't have own pt. base, just see his follow-up's, and acute cases.)

So anyways, my question is he said one doc is out on maternity leave and probably couldn't do an interview till week of April 21st.

So the HR from the community clinic called and i mentioned i would like to schedule a few interviews at the same time, (since i'm traveling from CO to TX) Anyways, she doesn't know but thinks that might be too far ahead.

I don't want to lose the opportunity at the community clinic because it sounds like a really great place to work, but the other job for sure i could do 4 days/week.

Should i just say i can't come til 21st? oh the 21st week would be a LOT better for me work wise, because i could go for a whole week and look for housing. versus only 2 days the week before. I'm just a little confused about what to do. I know they have great need in TX for NP's but also chance they could find someone sooner.

Neelia

core0 · Apr 5, 2008

david, what do you mean by this?
with the flexible schedule, my understanding how he explained is you would work 30min of your lunch and only take 30 for lunch.
they have 1 md and 1 pa at the clinic now and are trying to replace a np who is leaving for the mission field.
also do you mean i will really probably be working 7-6pm? :uhoh21:
he said the other providers cover for you on vaca, i'm not sure if pts have their own provider per se, it is a community health clinic.
yeah i have thought about the 1/2 day thing, would be better than nothing, and i don't plan on this being the end all be all, and i could live with that for at least 1-2 yrs.
clinic is usually run around your schedule. so you need to be there when you are scheduled to see patients. if you have a patient scheduled at 8am but don't show up until 830 then what happens. unless there is built in admin time, its pretty hard to have a flexible schedule when the schedule for patients isn't flexible. if you have a light schedule then maybe you can come in later if there is no one scheduled. generally flexible schedule and clinic are incompatible.
as far as 7-6pm this again is the reality of clinic. you are paid to do the work. its not a 9-5 job where you can drop what you are doing and go home regardless of whether you are done or not. every action that you take in clinic generates results that you have to deal with. there are tests to review, patients to talk with etc. i usually figure 1-2 hours per day. this assumes that you can keep up with your charting along with seeing patients. this is why i think that the 4/10 schedule is ideal for clinic. you have 2 hours per day to do your admin tasks and get your charting done. most 40 hour per week jobs are really more. i can't speak for nps, but on the average, full time pas work 44 hours per week.
i would ask the pa how many hours they work per week (work not scheduled). i would guess that its closer to 55+. most community clinics schedule patients every 15 minutes with a fairly high no show rates (based on my limited experience). it can be either really busy or not busy.
oh one more question, if you have time.
(i had another phone interview with another job in an internal medicine clinic. this one said they could work with 4 day week schedule, take mostly insurance (not underserved) they have had np's before but not in this position. would be working with a specific doc, wouldn't have own pt. base, just see his follow-up's, and acute cases.)
so anyways, my question is he said one doc is out on maternity leave and probably couldn't do an interview till week of april 21st.
so the hr from the community clinic called and i mentioned i would like to schedule a few interviews at the same time, (since i'm traveling from co to tx) anyways, she doesn't know but thinks that might be too far ahead.
i don't want to lose the opportunity at the community clinic because it sounds like a really great place to work, but the other job for sure i could do 4 days/week.
should i just say i can't come til 21st? oh the 21st week would be a lot better for me work wise, because i could go for a whole week and look for housing. versus only 2 days the week before. i'm just a little confused about what to do. i know they have great need in tx for np's but also chance they could find someone sooner.
neelia

hard to say what to do. i would treat each job as a seperate job search. they should be paying for your travel so it really doesn't matter. usually you have time after you accept to find a place to live etc. even if it means another trip out on your dime. it takes a while to get licensed in any case. not sure about the bon in tx but the bom is routinely taking 6 months from what i hear. overall if you have one job that sounds good there is the old saying about a bird in the hand.

good luck

david carpenter, pa-c

emtneel · Apr 5, 2008

Thanks DAvid, I understand what you are saying. I kind of figured I would have to stay extra to complete paperwork, etc at least for 1st year til i get more efficient. I really don't want to work 55+ hours per week. I guess I will have to ask about administrative time.

The only thing that gets me if that is considered just part of the job and you calculate it out to an hourly wage, that is not much more than what i make as a RN.

I guess i will just have to wait and discuss it if and when i get a job offer. I really would like to work less than 40 hours/week. Seriously its not all about money to me. I haven't had a life for several past years and I would really like some time to do things I enjoy and not be working so much and so hard that I am just completely wiped out and need the weekend just to recover.

The CEO who interviewed me did talk about creating an after hours clinic in the future, so maybe i can discuss that further and see if that is something "really" potentially happening or more speculation.

I will check into getting that book soon as well. Taking my exam on monday so that's my focus til then!!

Thanks again for all your comments, they are very helpful!

core0 · Apr 5, 2008

thanks david, i understand what you are saying. i kind of figured i would have to stay extra to complete paperwork, etc at least for 1st year til i get more efficient. i really don't want to work 55+ hours per week. i guess i will have to ask about administrative time.
its all negotiable. when we brought new pas on we would put empty slots in their schedules to catch up. for example if you are seeing a patient every 15 minutes have them leave one slot empty every hour so that you can do your charting. as you get more efficient start booking some of those slots. hopefully they understand how to construct a schedule. nothing is more aggravating than having to overbook 2-3 patients per day for "emergencies" when they could be booked into the schedule.
the only thing that gets me if that is considered just part of the job and you calculate it out to an hourly wage, that is not much more than what i make as a rn.
correct, and if you calculate in overtime it is probably less. when i was in denver, there were 2-3 rns in every icu that had their fnp. the one that did get a job as an fnp took a 10% pay cut. its difficult to tell if you will make more over time since its hard to predict what rn salaries are going to do. there are some markets that are now fairly saturated and the salaries will probably level off. others will keep going up. in texas from what i understand you will probably be making more than an rn with comparable experience.
its hard to make money in fp. even harder when most of your patients are medicaid/care. the private practice physicians (and npps) that make good money usually have a good payor mix and do a lot of procedures.
i guess i will just have to wait and discuss it if and when i get a job offer. i really would like to work less than 40 hours/week. seriously its not all about money to me. i haven't had a life for several past years and i would really like some time to do things i enjoy and not be working so much and so hard that i am just completely wiped out and need the weekend just to recover.
thats why i like 4/10s. you still do all the work but its in a more controlled fashion. realistically as a new grad they want you to work full time if you want full time pay. the only way that they make money is if patients come in the door. its a very different model than you are used to as a nurse.
the ceo who interviewed me did talk about creating an after hours clinic in the future, so maybe i can discuss that further and see if that is something "really" potentially happening or more speculation.
i will check into getting that book soon as well. taking my exam on monday so that's my focus til then!!
thanks again for all your comments, they are very helpful!

no problem. good luck.

david carpenter, pa-c

emtneel · Apr 5, 2008

I would like something like this (below) I don't know what i'm going to do. I don't want to pass up a good opportunity and might just need to get my foot in the door somewhere and get a good year's experience then I can move on. I may just have to deal with being tired all the time and no free time. :crying2:

I would totally work evenings/weekends, and even nights to have a more flexible schedule.

I"m gonna get that book! thanks for the suggestion.

We are seeking a Family Nurse Practitioner for a Family Practice/Urgent Care clinic . . One other (physician) provider on site. Clinic is open 7 days/wk. Schedule will be 11a - 9p, 3-4 days/wk and every other weekend. Some schedule flexibility. Moderate volume. Compensation will be $80-95k plus a comprehensive benefit package including 6 wks vacation and 1 wk paid CME plus malpractice and health insurance. Relocation assistance and separate sign-on bonus.

emtneel · Apr 5, 2008

So I talked to the medical director of this community clinic. I guess a 2nd phone interview.

She is concerned that I am a new graduate. I told her bluntly if she thought it would be to overwelming for a new grad then i don't want to put myself in that situation. She agreed and is going to talk to whomever else and get back to me mon or tues.

I also learned that the clinic sees primarily adults and seniors.. She said only a few kids and rarely adolescents.. Kind of strange b/c the CEO told me that they see a lot of adolescents for birth control.

The CEO also said the position they are replacing was a NP who is going to the mission field.

The Medical director said they are replacing a PA (she seemed to use PA and NP interchangable a few times) that wanted to go work ER.

So anyways. I did ask about a possible 4 day week schedule. She said possibly in 6 months when busy season they might extend hours, but she couldn't promise anything but said there was possibility.

I don't know, If it is mainly internal medicine this other position might be better suited, as it is internal medicine and the guy said i could do 4 day week schedule. It is also more follow-up's and acute care issues as you are seeing the MDs primary patients. So I"m wondering if that might be better for a new grad start til i feel more comfortable seeing pts. on my own.

Lot of things to think about.

The other thing is I will be sad to leave colorado. I know there is not the PERFECt job out there, but really feel if I am going to move to TX ( and i don't necessarily want to live there but at least i have family support there) I really want a job that I at least enjoy going to.

yellow finch, BSN, RN · Apr 6, 2008

Where in TX is this job (don't worry, I'm not looking to move )? That salary for a FNP is pretty decent compared to what they're paying FNPs here in GA. It's kinda pathetic.

Anyway, I lived in Austin for a few years and truly enjoyed every minute. Kinda wish it wasn't so darn hot most of the year or else I never would have moved away.

emtneel · Apr 6, 2008

I don't know where the one is of the ad i posted 80-95k.

But I did have a phone interview for a internal medicine position in Waxahachie, he did not talk about benefits but said they are hurting pretty bad for NP's in general.

The community health center is in Kaufman, their range is 70-80, lower end for new grads.

I had 2 phone interviews for a jobs in California wide range, the one near san diego was 37$/hr i believe, but VERY high cost of living in that area. Another one which was sketchy was offering 86k +$1000/mo.bonus if you saw 25+ pts every day, and that was for new grad.

So it really varies.