Md's Against Crna's?

[LLL123]

I work in a large academic medial center in the SICU. I am also interviewing next week for anesthesia school!!! (this is a whole other discussion!!:imbar ) Today while at work one of the anesthesia residents came to preop one of my patients for tracheostomy surgery in the morning. As I was chit chatting with him about anesthesia school the resident for my patient's primary team came over and joined our conversation. The surgical resident has made comments to me about calling anesthetists "NINJAS". I asked him about this one day and he said because they are "silent asassins". As we were joking today I told the anesthesia resident about this "nick" and the surgery resident said that only applied to CRNA's not MDA's. The anesthesia resident in turn made several ugly remarks about CRNA's and their incompetence. This infuriated me! I (very nicely) pointed out to them that there is incompetence in every field, MD's included! I have been reading in these forums about the struggle for power between these two groups of professionals, but have yet to witness any of it untill today. I just don't understand why MD's have such a problem with the practice of CRNA's!

Any one have any "reasonable" ideas?

[sc17]

Quite frankly, I think I'm just as intelligent as any pre-med student in undergrad and if my mommy and daddy drove BMWs and Jaguars, I'm sure I would be one of them too. But we're all not born with a silver spoon in our mouths are we?

This is a very arrogant and uncalled for statement. You may very well be more intelligent than many physicans, but to belittle their education and years of hardwork by crediting it to their parents/upbringing is ridiculous. Most MD's graduate medical school with hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and work very hard during school and residency - most are in early thirties with huge debt before they start making a real salary. Maybe you could have gone to medical school if you wanted to, but you didn't. It has nothing to do with silver spoons or BMWs, many docs have come from poor backgrounds. Any intelligent person can earn an MD if they work hard enough.

In spite of what you believe most physicians respect crna's, other advanced practice nurses, rn's, etc. Some MD's are arrogant egomaniacs but that is the exception rather than the rule. You should also show respect to practitioners with other backgrounds.

[heartICU]

A qualified medication aide

There is a big difference in the QMA vs. RN and CRNA vs. MD debate. A CRNA is educated to provide anesthesia in the same way that a MD is, but a QMA is not educated to provide nursing care the way an RN is. Yes, QMAs pass meds, which is part of an RN's job, but a CRNA does not just do a part of an MDs job. CRNA and MD have different job titles, but perform the same function (as it applied to anesthesia). A QMA and RN have different job titles and different functions.

[Crystle_clear]

I don't see any difference between the two. It is still prejudice against a person's ability to do their assigned job based soley on their job title or the letters behind their name.

All I am trying to say is that everyone deserves respect no matter what your job title is. From CNA to RN to MD, as long as you have the required training to perform the job, you deserve to be treated as a professional and respected as such. Am I wrong?

[TexasCCRN]

There is a big difference in the QMA vs. RN and CRNA vs. MD debate. A CRNA is educated to provide anesthesia in the same way that a MD is, but a QMA is not educated to provide nursing care the way an RN is. Yes, QMAs pass meds, which is part of an RN's job, but a CRNA does not just do a part of an MDs job. CRNA and MD have different job titles, but perform the same function (as it applied to anesthesia). A QMA and RN have different job titles and different functions.

Ok don't let things get out of hand here everyone! Heart makes a good point here that there is a difference (although I have never heard of a QMA so i really can't speak to it). Regardless of their title everyone deserves the same respect as a human being.

It was a bad idea to group all MD's into the "born with money" category. Generalizations like that will close your mind to all kinds of things regardless who they are about.

It is classic how one group puts down the other...it just happens from all areas.."some" MD's put down CRNA's, CRNA's put down AA's, etc. The only people who can change this is us. We are all educated differently and have our roles to play, but if we all just do our jobs it makes all of us look good. The ones who go around putting everyone else down that makes their own profession look bad.

[lmdscd]

Just to make a point. It's not crna's that start the lawsuits, just like in Sacramento California sca are going after the cana for control! Alot of the hospitals make you wait to induce till the md gets there just to watch so they can double bill Medicare twice. They say its for safety of patient but there no proof . Its called politics and they have the advantage because people know about them more we should advertise more in my book. Have a great weekend.

[versatile_kat]

Just a little clarification...everyone who has attended or is attending med school do not all have parents who drive BMWs and Jaguars, nor were they all born with a silver spoon in their mouths. ANYONE who has the drive required to get in and remain in med school can achieve that goal. Though there are some doctors who think less of CRNAs, not all of them do. Let's not generalize about the entire profession. Like someone said in another post, the bad and the ugly exist in all professions.

Exactly what I was going to say. Thank you.

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

I seems to me that mabye the MD's feel the same way about CRNA's that nurses feel about QMA's. I'm not say that this prejudice is right but as a QMA, I been suject to more than my share of "talking down to", especially on this website. Before everyone starts making generalized statements about other groups, let's take a min. and look at ourselves. :)

What does that really have to do with the title of this thread? It's about MDs and CRNAs, not nurses and nurse's aides or QMAs.

[Marie_LPN, RN, LPN, RN]

Anyway, I can believe that this is a problem. One of our anesthesia groups is very active in their anti-CRNA campaign. We have one nurse staring classes to become a CRNA next fall, and won't even talk about it, because of the group.

[Crystle_clear]

I'm just pointing out some of the hypocrisy I've read in these forums, Marie.

[Terpole]

Just a little clarification...everyone who has attended or is attending med school do not all have parents who drive BMWs and Jaguars, nor were they all born with a silver spoon in their mouths. ANYONE who has the drive required to get in and remain in med school can achieve that goal. Though there are some doctors who think less of CRNAs, not all of them do. Let's not generalize about the entire profession. Like someone said in another post, the bad and the ugly exist in all professions.

I'm sorry for the generalization, but most pre-med students and med students I know has a doc mom or doc dad advising, motivating, and pushing them along. Of course, they're not ALL well off, but half of them are. I was just poking fun at my buddies, no offense to anyone else:coollook:

[apaisRN, RN, CRNA]

To safely administer and monitor medications, an RN has to know a great deal about many, many drugs. She/he has to grasp the pathophysiology and consider how each drug may affect the patient's disease process. She has the training and the experience to detect negative reactions quickly. I seriously doubt medication aides receive training in any of these areas, because it would take years.

I understand that you feel it's unfair, but RNs are RNs FOR A REASON. If we didn't need them then anyone could take a medication aide course and we could pass the whole business along to them. God knows I wouldn't mind giving up the enormous task of administering medications - think how much else I could get done!

I don't think nurses are the only professionals qualified to handle ALL nursing skills. I'm pleased to have a trained aide draw blood for me or start an IV. But if I give that aide some cough syrup for Mrs. X and she gives it to Mrs. Y and harm befalls Mrs, Y, I'm the one in trouble, even if it was entirely legal for the aide to give that med.

CRNAs are BSNs with critical care experience who spend two to three years in intensive class and clinical learning to give anesthesia. The standard of care is identical to that of an MD. The profession has been around for more than a century and predates medical anesthesiologists. (Medication aides, OTOH, are a cost-cutting and corner-cutting method thought up by for-profit health care.) There is abosulutely not one shred of evidence that the care provided by CRNAs is inferior to that provided by MDs. If I as a CRNA screw up, it is entirely on my head even if the doctor was "supervising." He/she is not responsible for anything dumb I may do.

Sorry to go off, but QMAs and RNs are in NO WAY analogous to CRNAs and MDs. I guess I get upset when the accomplishments I'm so proud of are diminished like that. But really, if you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to stay quiet.

[Terpole]

It seems to me that everybody's getting a little tense about this. I think the things we are 'arguing' or debating about in this thread are blown way out of proportion. It's just conversation for pete sake. How we really know that all this stuff is just all talk from the powers that be and demonstrations and supposed legislation in progress is just shots fired and none of this stuff won't get off the ground?