Male Nurses/female Patients

Bhebe55 · May 3, 2010

Ok so I have been trolling these forums for a while now and have actually read every single post on this thread. This will be my first post.

I am starting clinicals in August. I am 25 married father of two. I am going into nursing because I have always been interested in the medical field and the experience I had with the birth of my two children has inspired me to go into nursing. I'm doing rather well to 4.0. So far and the highest nln-pax score my school has ever had. I have given this topic much thought and after reading as much as I could about the subject I have decided on my feeling on the subject. I have absolutley no problem with any female requesting a mother female RN. I think it is a nurses job to take care of a patient both physically and emotionally. If the best way I can help a patient is by stepping aside then I can accept that. Will it sting my pride a little sure. Will I understand of course.

That being said what I can not and will not abide is that same kind of blatant sexual discrimination be perpatrated, looked over , or reinforced by any nursing staff or espically educators. I will not accept being treated like a second class citizen in any part of my clinical rotation. I expect to get the exact same education asany of student no matter the sex, race, creed, or class. I dont want to be treated any better or worse just equal. This i think is the worst offence to men entering this great field is to be marginilized by the very teachers that are supposed to be instilling the virtues of being a caring respectful member of the medical community.

Can't wait to join everyone as an equal collegue.

P.s. I typed this out at work on my iPhone so of there are a lot of errors I apologize.

Birdbr · Jan 2, 2011

Unfortunately, our litigious society assumes that all men are predators. The fact that doctors are exempt from this assumption is claim to thier continued elevation as morally and intellectually superior to all other health care professionals.
Let's face it, all it takes is an accusation and that male nurse is run out of town on a rail (there will be the usual investigation, commonly without finding, followed by considerable stress on the floor about what really happened). The assumption of guilt is classicly conditioned. Who would want to put themselves in that position?
Please don't shoot the messenger on this subject; it is only my opinion

________________________

I totally agree with this. Not to seem mean, but I think many females just assume that all guys like them. You were trained to do it and can do it just as well as a female. I have lots of female friends and I hate going somewhere and they assume all the guys are looking at them. It's like, not all men are pigs that want to hit on you. Sadly, it is still a sexist world, and most of the sexism is on males in this field.

ERER · Apr 24, 2011

Its a easy to deal with concept concerning male nurses and female patients: If the patient says "No" to a male nurse attending her best advice is to respect her wishes otherwise legal entanglement might follow! :eek:

ITSSOSIMPLE · Apr 24, 2011

I should also add that I have never heard of or seen a female nurse refusing to care for a male patient in regard to catheterization, bathing, or any other exam of a personal nature.

Men should be asked what their preferences are regarding gender in intimate procedures. Choices for female patients

have already been made ie,mammography and L&D. Equality for both,not just for one.

xx--RN--xx · May 3, 2011

I'm interested in knowing if anyone has the issue of male nurses refusing to perform certain nursing functions simply because they are male. Having worked in a large teaching hospital and smaller community hospitals, there seems to be a huge difference. In the teaching hospital, male nurses did everything a patient needed, regardless of gender. In the smaller community hospitals, the male nurses sought out female nurses to take care of all manner of female patient's hygiene, all gyn exams ,and anything else a female patient needed. Have we become such a litigous society that we base our practice on gender? Do you find yourself taking care of your male colleagues patients as well as your own simply because they are afraid to touch their female patients?

(I work in an urban hospital)

It's a give and take.

I'm a big dude and I look like a bouncer at a biker bar. I work in an ICU and I get the lion's share of the requests to help pull patients up/ turn patients or move them to bedside chair/commode. Also, they usually give me all the sexist male, uncooperative or combative patients.

I never bathe a female without another female in the room. I never do gyno exams and I've never put a foley in a female. (I'm actually proud of that last one...what a streak). When cleaning up after a BM, I always have my fellow female nurse clean the lady partsl area.

I will help a female pt to the toilet and stay in the room for high fall risk, adjust/apply cardiac leads, help on and off bedpan, dc a foley ...(anything without any direct lady partsl contact).

All the female nurses on my unit know that there is a standing offer from me for care of their male patients in the same way that I ask them to care for my female patients.

Luckily for me, most a/ox3 females prefer a female nurse to perform my "hands off" list above. However, even if the patient had a 21st century view on male nurses I probably wouldn't anyway. Why open myself to potential accusations? I have too much to lose and it isn't worth it to me.

justashooter · May 3, 2011

On the other side of the female/male coin, I've had male patients refuse care from me because I'm female and they wanted a guy. Sometimes I could find a male CNA and that was okay as long as the care was within a CNA's scope of practice. When it came to Foley insertion, though, that's an RN thing, and I would have to explain to the gentleman that (9 times out of 10) no male RN was available and he had two options: either I could do it now and relieve the pain and suffering problem or it would get worse, or he could wait some length of time until a male RN would be available, which could be an hour or two. I'd offer a male CNA as an assistant and keep the male patient covered as much as possible. After thinking about it, they'd let me help under those conditions.
:)

so you are saying that your hospital has created a situation that forces patients to accept medical care under duress, and that you have done nothing to correct the situation? how nice.

nursemike, ASN, RN · May 5, 2011

so you are saying that your hospital has created a situation that forces patients to accept medical care under duress, and that you have done nothing to correct the situation? how nice.

While I appreciate your concern that male modesty should be considered as seriously as female modesty, I see nothing in the post referred to that amounts to duress. The patient is free to refuse entirely, or to refuse until a male becomes available, as he sees fit.

It seems to be an underlying assumption in this and some other threads that a patient's modesty is sacrosanct. I consider human dignity to be a fundamental value, at or near the same level as life itself. People should be respected. But providing nursing care is not disrespectful, much less an assault on human dignity. I don't get more satisfaction from doing peri care on a 20 y.o. female than a 90 y.o. male. A 20 y.o. female really has nothing more to be embarrassed about than a 90 y.o. male. Nursing can be, at times, more intimate than sex, but it isn't sex. Patient comfort is an important consideration, as is patient modesty, but if a patient is unwell enough to require hospitalization, neither comfort nor modesty is likely to be the most important consideration. Beyond a point, modesty becomes pathological. As nurses, I don't believe we are responsible to "correct" a shortage of same-sex caregivers. Rather, we should be educating our patients that it really doesn't matter what gender the caregiver is. Of course, human beings are not entirely rational, but considered rationally, a male patient's preference for only males to place a urinary catheter differs only in degree from a female insisting that only female caregivers should perform CPR if she were to need it.

Cul2 · May 5, 2011

nursemike -- I've followed many of your posts and have great respect for you point of view -- which I've expressed in the past. But I need to point out some reasoning flaws in your last post.

-- "People should be respected. But providing nursing care is not disrespectful, much less an assault on human dignity." -- True, of course, as far as it goes. But who defines "respect" and "dignity?" Within reason, patients have a right to define those words as they apply to their treatment based upon cultural and other factors. Some kinds of nursing care, gender-based, may be considered disrespectful and/or undignified by some people under some contexts. That is valid. And if the system makes little attempt to accommodate both genders, that's called gender discrimination.

-- "A 20 y.o. female really has nothing more to be embarrassed about than a 90 y.o. male." Whether a person has something to be embarrassed about isn't up to the nurse, it's up to the patient. You're focusing on the nurse. Of course, from that point of view, there may be nothing to be embarrassed about. From the patient's view, there may be. Embarrassment is a feeling, an emotion. It could involve a past history of abuse. And, yes, men have been abused, too. Feelings and emotions have validity and need to be respected -- for both genders.

-- "if a patient is unwell enough to require hospitalization, neither comfort nor modesty is likely to be the most important consideration." With some patients, yes. With all, though? That's a pretty broad assumption. Why not ask and find out? You use the world "likely" and I agree with you. But what about the smaller, yet significant number of patients who don't fit in that category. Just because they're very sick, vulnerable, helpless -- doesn't mean that don't care about how they're treated. Compliance doesn't mean they agree. They may be just too exhausted to fight with you.

-- "Beyond a point, modesty becomes pathological." Agreed. But how do you define that point? Who defines it and what are the criteria? Unless you know the patients inner history, how can you judge whether it a pathology or realistic emotion?

-- "Rather, we should be educating our patients that it really doesn't matter what gender the caregiver is." I don't mean this personally, but that presumes a lot. Whether it matters is up to the patient, not the system. Are you practicing social engineering here? So, when a patient enters the hospital from the dominant culture, now it's up to the medical culture to "educate" and "resocialize" the patient? I would rather suggest that patients need to "educate" and "resocialize" the medical community that for some patients, same gender care matters -- which you already know, I realize...But also that if it sometimes matters and is mostly granted for one gender it may matter and should be mostly granted for the other gender. And if staffing quotas don't allow that, that's gender discrimination.

-- "a male patient's preference for only males to place a urinary catheter differs only in degree from a female insisting that only female caregivers should perform CPR if she were to need it." Again, great presumptions. Only in degree? Who defines that degree? You? What role does the patient have in defining that degree? That degree could vary considerably from patient to patient.

Again, I've enjoyed most of your previous posts, but I find this one to lack some of the same thoughtfulness and reasoning I 've found in the others.

nursemike, ASN, RN · May 5, 2011

Thanks. I believe I may have overstated my case. I do recognize that the nurse-patient relationship is a human one, and that part of respecting human dignity is accepting that we all have our beliefs, preferences, and even limitations. I believe it was on another, similar thread that I discussed my own discomfort, at times, with interventions such as peri care on a 20 y.o. female. If I can understand and forgive myself, then surely I ought to understand why she might have her own discomfort, and it shouldn't be a major stretch to extend the same sensitivity to a male. I do believe we should make a reasonable effort to preserve each patient's modesty. Like physical comfort, it is always a desirable goal. I really only meant to say that it can't always be our top priority.

I think where I may differ with some posters is what constitutes "reasonable." I don't believe it is an obligation of any facility to ensure that its staffing ratios are such that a male nurse is available for any patient who might prefer one. I certainly do favor encouraging more men to consider a career in nursing, but I'm uneasy with the idea of affording men some sort of special status in a field which was long one of the few open to women. As a man in nursing, I may not be qualified to say what keeps men out of nursing, but I do recall that what kept me from considering nursing at a much younger age was my perception that it would be gross, and awfully personal. I haven't changed my perception, but after seeing nurses in action, it doesn't bother me as much. I suppose I would be in a bind if facilities started offering a 10% "male differential," in that I wouldn't think it was right, but I could use the money. I would be similarly ambivalent in my opposition to preferential hiring practices. I've never been entirely in favor of some of the affirmative action measures of the past, although I've never really had a better idea. I believe we could stand to encourage more people of minority backgrounds to consider nursing, as well, but I'm not happy with the idea of saying we need to hire x black nurses and y Hispanic nurses over the next z years.

I'm not aware of any men's health clinics analogous to women's health clinics. I don't think it would be a terrible idea to start some, if there's enough demand for them. But I think it's fair to note that a lot of the impetus behind women's health is that men's health has long been medicine's default position. Women have "atypical" angina because they don't have men's angina. Women also have numerous serious problems to which men are immune, or nearly so. It's probably true that I would feel a bit awkward, going to the breast cancer institute at my hospital. It's also probably true that I will never need to. It's probably also true that some men would be more comfortable seeking prostate care at a dedicated facility with all male staff, but I don't think we can assume there's enough demand to justify creating one. For myself, I'm content with the care I now receive, and a believe a lot of men may feel similarly.

Modesty, of course, is not the only reason a man might prefer a male caregiver. Some religions strongly discourage contact between opposite sexes. Some men do have a history of abuse at the hands of females. Even "simple" modesty deserves some accommodation. Although it initially stung a little to see my previous argument criticized as more nurse-centered than patient-centered, upon reflection, I agree that it is, but also believe it should be. I don't mean to say patient preference shouldn't matter, but I do assert that there is a limit to how far we should have to go to meet it.

If a male patient requests only female nurses, should we honor that? I can see why one might. For as long as I've had my blood pressure checked, I've noticed a trend to get lower readings when a female checks it. I'm measurably more comfortable being touched by a woman than a man. (I'm not homophobic, I'm just scared of gays. Although, as far as I know, I've never had my BP checked by a gay man. But I've had it checked by a gay woman and that was okay. But I digress.) If a male patient requests to only be assigned the younger, hotter female nurses, I think we can all agree he probably isn't looking for the kind of services nurses provide. Now, I don't necessarily think a man is a monster for preferring the company of attractive young women. Some of the nurses on my unit are pretty, and I like looking at them, too. But I also believe "eye candy" is not a nursing function. If a patient receives competent care from a homely old guy like me, he has received what he's paying for. Or she has. And I think that's the gist of my argument, that we, as professionals, have every right to define what services we offer. We don't promise every patient eight hours of uninterrupted sleep. We don't promise complete freedom from pain. We can't. And I don't think we can, or should really be expected to, promise that every patient will always be completely comfortable with his/her caregiver. I recently did patient satisfaction rounds on a fellow who was deeply dissatisfied with his stay. When I asked what could be done to improve it, he said that the food could be better. The food was not his biggest complaint, it was only the only thing he thought we could do better. His view was that nursing was doing the best it could, but being in the hospital was going to suck, no matter what we did. Which has been exactly my experience, any time I've been a patient. I'm all for the minimum practical suckage, but I've discharged patients under police escort who were glad to be going back to jail.

I have gladly performed interventions on male patients for my female peers, and unabashedly asked the same of them. If a nurse from another unit called and said they had no males, I'd willingly go as long as my patients were covered. Would I come in on my night off to straight cath a male? Depending on the circumstances, I suppose it's conceivable, but I wouldn't really think it was a reasonable request. Past a point, a patient's problem is just that--his problem--and I believe we, as a profession, have the right and duty to decide where that point is. Sometimes the best we can offer is a caring, competent, conscientious nurse. And I don't really think it's social engineering to tell people that's the best they should expect.

Cul2 · May 5, 2011

nursemike -- Thanks for your thoughtful response. As I've stated before, patient attitude toward nurse gender for intimate care, I believe, is most likely connected with whether patients feel respected, whether they feel their autonomy, their privacy, their dignity is being protected -- draping, no open doors, no people popping in and out, etc. The keys -- empathy, good communication, the initial approach, etc. But, those factors are in turn influenced by the healthy or unhealthy working culture of a hospital or clinic. There's been a significant amount of posts on this blog about unhealth working conditions. This affects staff morale and thus affects the factors I mentioned above. Attitude toward this issue is important. Whether those doing the hiring and scheduling think it's even an issue is important. If caregivers have an agenda, a firm "gender doesn't matter" attude -- that matters. Scheduling isn't brain surgery. It's not always impossible to schedule this issue. As you know, this is a very contextual subject. It can't be simply summed up. We can debate what is considered "within reason" from a patient's perspective. We can debate what's considered "within reason" from a nurse perspective. There's a big difference between a patient who "refuses" absolutely opposite gender care and a patient who expresses his/her preference for same gender care. Even though you should try, you may not be able to accommodate the first. The second, you may be able to change his/her mind with the proper approach and communication skills.

justashooter · May 5, 2011

now come on cul, mike is a 50-something year old guy with a fascination for buffy the vampire slayer. the last guy i knew like that was a couple's therapist PSYD specialising in male sexual dysfunction (it takes a fox...). let him define reality for all the rest of us as he likes. don't make no difference, as i'm sure we're all just like him.

seriously, speaking as a guy who chose a career in health care on basis of his own experiences of the glaring deficiency of male care providers in medicine, i can speak for those of us who are here, at least in part, to address the problem. i can also bust on the unsympathetic women who jump into the "guy room" uninvited and tell us that it's "tough ****" if we want to be accorded the same dignity that they demand, as a gender, since it just ain't happening.

even more seriously, it's more than just "dignity", and patient modesty. it's compassion. a 23 year old girl in her 8th month of pregnancy by an unknown father just doesn't give a crap about some middle aged guy who cut his foot off with a bush hog. he is not even a "person" to her, because she has no experience of his identity. she has no experience beyond her own. if he is lucky, maybe one of the CNA will be a middle aged guy that can carry our patient to the toilet.

what is needed in nursing is more men who have been in the real world and know how it works, and how men in the real world become who they are. only in this way will men in a patient role feel that nursing understands them and genuinely cares. until then i'll just keep tilting at windmills.

ITSSOSIMPLE · May 7, 2011

With all due respect Nursemike I've noticed you have only been a nurse for a few years but don't worry as I won't hold that against you. Currently, there are websites by female nurses that are for the sole purpose of making fun of the male patient

member. There is a website by a female nurse that pokes fun at the fact that female nurses once would strike a member with a

steel spoon if it were erect. This would even happen to young boys,some were rendered impotent.