Is there REALLY a nursing shortage?

Sheri257 · May 16, 2004

No, there isn't. Dept of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics stats bear this out:
The current number of unfilled nursing jobs supposedly r/t the shortage is approx. 400,000. the current number of licensed RNs in the U.S. currently working in non-nursing occupations is approx. 500,000. You do the math- there is actually a surplus of 100,000 RNs in The U.S. right now.

Once again, with all due respect Christina ... we don't know.

The report also said that 70 percent of those people were over 50, and the specifically stated the government doesn't know much about them. Certainly there's got to be some retirements in there, and some may even be deceased.

So, if the government says they don't know in their own report, I would assume that we don't know for sure either.

Sheri257 · May 16, 2004

I've been a nurse for over 30 years, there has always been a shortage of one kind or another.

This is why I don't understand people who are against foreign nurses. If there's always been a shortage of some kind, why are you arguing that the govenment should limit the labor pool? Especially when nurses are always complaining that they need more help, and that high ratios endanger patient safety. It seems to be contradictory, to say the least.

The same report that Christina cited also predicts that the shortage will get much worse in the next 20 years with the aging baby boom generation. 200,000 vacant positions are projected in my state alone.

Seems to be room for everyone.

I really don't see a problem here. It is, afterall, a free country.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · May 16, 2004

You are wrong. Temporary workers can be paid at a different scale and usually are. Green card holders are permanent residents and have to be paid at the same rate. .

There are a lot of things that hospitals are not supposed to do, but they do them anyway. If a hospital paid legal fees, transportation, etc to help a foreign nurse get a green card, they start them out at a lower rate of pay than regular staff gets. Plus, many are required to sign a contract which stipulates that if they quit or are fired, they must pay the hospital back. I know for a fact that this was done in the hospital where I worked. Several Phillipino nurses there told me.

We compared wages. I was a new grad at the time, and their salaries were less than mine.

Most employers are not concerned about the rights of their employees who were born Americans. Whatever makes you think they would be any different with foreigners?

Dixiedi · May 16, 2004

This is why I don't understand people are against foreign nurses. If there's always been a shortage of some kind, why are you arguing that the govenment should limit the labor pool? Especially when nurses are always complaining that they need more help, and that high ratios endanger patient safety. It seems to be contradictory, to say the least.
...
Seems to be room for everyone.
...
I really don't see a problem here. It is, afterall, a free country.

It's not JUST the nursing jobs that wil be affected. A nurse comes over, fine. Then she sends moeny to her/his spouse, kids, parents, grandparents, cousins and it goes on and on. These are the people who will take jobs we don't have available away from American workers. This country is getting too crowded to support more and more and more people. Do you want us to end up with birth control as in China??? Don't htink it could never happen here. It could. When a given space can not support the population, that population must be reduced. Period. Time to watch out for ourselves so this country can remain the great place to live that it is.

Sheri257 · May 16, 2004

These are the people who will take jobs we don't have available away from American workers.

Actually, when people shop at Wal-Mart, they take jobs away from American workers. But Americans like the lower prices that cheap foreign labor provides.

Are we supposed to throw up trade barriers so Americans can have more jobs and pay higher prices?

Same thing with the Mexican immigrants who work in the California agriculture industry, which supplies cheap food for the rest of the nation. You want to pay higher grocery prices so Americans can have more of those jobs?

Protectionism of any kind doesn't work, and never has.

nightingale, RN · May 16, 2004

My Grandfather was an immigrant. I am glad they did not stop allowing immigrants in to our country with him. He went on to become a politican who helped his community emmensely. My father, his son, worked for years and years dedicated to one company. He did this in spite of conditions that I, today, would find deplorable.

I am not real keen on my job going to someone else who will work for less money and in conditions that I find deplorable and unsafe but that is what has happened for decades.

We all try to better our lot. It would be my hope that nurses unite not pit against each other. There is more power in being united against the issues and struggles of nurses then in dividing amongst one another.

While not perfect, I am grateful for the right to join the ANA. I am proud to be a member of a group that unites nurses.

night

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · May 16, 2004

Once again, with all due respect Christina ... we don't know.
The report also said that 70 percent of those people were over 50, and the specifically stated the government doesn't know much about them. Certainly there's got to be at least some retirements in there, and some may even be deceased.
So, if the government says they don't know in their own report, I would assume that we don't know for sure either.

Since the gov't doesn't know much about these nurses, I wish they would find out. I know quite a few nurses (in real life, and on the 'Net) who still hold their nursing licenses, but have left nursing. If some of the 500,000 nurses cited by The Dept of Labor are deceased, their licenses would not be renewed, and they wouldn't be counted among the nurses w/ active licensure.

Where I work, eight RNs were just hired. About half are nurses with many years of experience in ER and ICU. They took BIG paycuts to come to work with us. I asked three of them why, they told me working conditions and burn-out. Two of them told me that they will never work in a hospital again, and if there were another job they could do without having to go back to school and make about the same money, they would leave nursing.

I also know several nurses whom have left nursing because they have been disabled by on-the-job back injuries, incurred as a result of poor working conditions. I am partially disabled from nursing back injuries, myself.

I only have anecdotal evidence to support my belief that hundreds of thousands of nurses whom have left nursing, did so because of working conditions, and that the result if a false nursing shortage.

I wish that some of the many nurses planning to get PhDs in nursing would make it their business to find out about these mysterious 500,000 RNs, and base their dissertations on why nurses leave nursing, and what they are doing as an alternative to nursing. Most of the nursing dissertaions which I have read do not explore anything with any relevence to nursing or patients.

Since The Dept of Labor has shown that there are 500,000 currently licensed RNS in The U.S. not working in nursing, doesn't it make sense for them to find out why, and what could be done to bring them back to the bedside, before everyone goes crying nursing shortage and importing foreigners to address this supposed nursing shortage?

Sheri257 · May 16, 2004

Since the gov't doesn't know much about these nurses, I wish they would find out. I know quite a few nurses (in real life, and on the 'Net) who still hold their nursing licenses, but have left nursing. If some of the 500,000 nurses cited by The Dept of Labor are deceased, their licenses would not be renewed, and they wouldn't be counted among the nurses w/ active licensure.

True. But with a two year gap between license renewals (at least in my state), and a significant portion of that population being older, I just mentioned it as another possible factor. Especially since that report was done in 2000, and is now four years old.

I too wish we could learn more. I guess you'd have to do a poll of the non-working licensed nurses, and I suspect that would be a substantial undertaking.

There have also been reports of nurses returing to work because of the recession, with spouses being laid off in other industries, etc. Since the report was completed before then, it would be interesting to see what those numbers look like now and if they're the same, or not.

:coollook:

angel337, MSN, RN · May 16, 2004

in chicago illinois, where we are truly the melting pot, there are hundreds of jobs for nurses. it is impossible not to find a nursing job here. however, i think it is funny how some nurses complain about the "shortage" and the working conditions but as soon as there is a possible threat of foreigners filling the "shortage" gaps, they become worried. i don't plan to work agency as a full time job because it is not guaranteed income. the hospital i work at is staffed pretty good and we don't use agency that much mainly because people are going staff more than they did say 5 -6 years ago. in 2000 are ED was staffed 50% with agency, which is pretty bad. who are filling the spots? you guessed it. filipino nurses, mexican nurses. i don't have a probelm with it because these nurses are working for the same reason i am...to provide for their family. most of them are paid more than i am because they have prior experience. however, reading these posts make me worry if i have to think about my career not being here in the future. there is already talk about med techs replacing RN's. i am not threatened by foreigners. i feel more threatened by our government and the power that they have to change our livlihoods in the blink of an eye with the poor decisions they make.

Dixiedi · May 16, 2004

Actually, when people shop at Wal-Mart, they take jobs away from American workers. But Americans like the lower prices that cheap foreign labor provides.
Are we supposed to throw up trade barriers so Americans can have more jobs and pay higher prices?
Same thing with the Mexican immigrants who work in the California agriculture industry, which supplies cheap food for the rest of the nation. You want to pay higher grocery prices so Americans can have more of those jobs?
Protectionism of any kind doesn't work, and never has.

I did not say we should not buy foreign made goods. I said we should not allow more folks into this country that will take existing jobs from Americans. Yes, mny companies will move abroad. If that's their choice, they can provide jobs for these people "over there." Many American jobs are lost that way and will continue to lost that way. That's business. But we as a nation must do what we can as a nation to keep jobs here and for us.

I know it sounds cruel, but in an ever changing global economy we must take a few steps towards protecting ourselves and limiting immigration is one such step.

Other countries still allow even expect children to work and often (should be always) go to school. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. But in this country, we expect our children to sit on their duffs and party hardy instead of helping the family. We have already set ourselves up for a grand fall when the only jobs left are those that 1) do not pay a living wage or 2) require more education or desire to work than our children have. We have made them soft, now we must protect their ability to earn some kind of living. By not limiting immigration, those "middle of the road" jobs will go to those whose whole family gets out there and works to better the lot.

We must begin to think outside the box, use our cognitive skills to see the whole picture or the Great US will be the "pit stop" instead of the "destination."

Sheri257 · May 16, 2004

I did not say we should not buy foreign made goods. I said we should not allow more folks into this country that will take existing jobs from Americans. Yes, mny companies will move abroad. If that's their choice, they can provide jobs for these people "over there." Many American jobs are lost that way and will continue to lost that way. That's business. But we as a nation must do what we can as a nation to keep jobs here and for us.
I know it sounds cruel, but in an ever changing global economy we must take a few steps towards protecting ourselves and limiting immigration is one such step.

I guess you missed the part where I also mentioned cheap Mexican immigrant labor working for the California agriculture industry. If you limit immigration, you can bet that food prices will rise since, California supplies half the food for the country, if not more than that.

Of course, it will never happen since nobody wants to pay higher food prices.

Hellllllo Nurse, BSN, RN · May 16, 2004

True. But with a two year gap between license renewals (at least in my state), and a significant portion of that population being older, I just mentioned it as another possible factor.

I thought of that, but all stats have a margin of error, or allowances for these types of things. But, 500,000 nurses is a whole lotta nurses. Especially, when the shortage is supposedly 400,000.

I know it would be a huge undertaking to find out about the mysterious 500,000 nurses, but it needs to be done.

So much time, personnel and resources have been and are being used for one usless shortage study and program after another.

For example, The Nursing Reinvestment Act. It provides for scholarship money, loans and loan payback, and recruitment.

However, study after study shows that new nurses are leaving nursing sooner, and in greater numbers, than ever before.

Approaching the problem of the "shortage" with recruitment strategies only, is like transfusing a hemorrhaging pt over and over again, without ever finding the source of the hemorrhage or closing the wound.

I wish some of these efforts and monies could be diverted into into finding out where these 500,000 nurses are, what they are doing, why it's not nursing, and what it would take to bring them back.