Immigration Status Questions To Expand To Healthcare?

HM2VikingRN, RN · Aug 7, 2007

easy there, tn. i am from the south too. i didn't mean any personal offense by the redneck bit. my point was that had the driver been a white english speaking citizen, would the to-do have been made? i'm sorry if i offended. it wasn't my intent, as i am from the rural south myself.
i continue to say that if you want them to be here legally -- which most of them would want for themselves -- then lobby congress to make it easier for them. the rules are not the same for everybody! and they should be. it's not fair for cubans to automatically get residency if they can reach us soil, when they are essentially doing the same thing as other latin americans coming here illegally, just because the us isn't a fan of cuban gov't. it's not fair that the us doesn't require visas of people from many european countries for a short visit but that mexicans, hondurans, guatemalans, etc. have to wait almost an entire generation for their visas, if they are even lucky enough to be granted one. i wouldn't wait either, if my children were hungry.
as for "but should the usa have to shoulder the burden of those here illegally bc their gvt cant provide for them" , do you think maybe people were saying the same thing when 1/3 of ireland rolled up on our shores in the wake of the 1848 potato famine?? you can say that they came here legally, but did they all? they came here with no idea whether they'd be accepted into the country or not. much research that i have done about the subject indicates that a lot of people several generations back snuck into the usa without inspection, or that were deemed 'unacceptable' upon inspection stayed here illegally anyway. the current generation of illegal immigrants is by no means the first.
here is my solution: make the rules the same for everybody. cut out a lot of the crap and red tape and stupid paperwork and make it easier for good people of any nationality that want to be here, make it possible for them to be here legally. i have not met a single illegal immigrant that, given the realistic choice, would choose to be an illegal immigrant.
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i am a christian. i realize that not everybody is, and i'm not trying to start the religion debate. immigration is heated enough. but the reason i feel as strongly as i do is that the bible i read says that aliens in our land are to be treated as our neighbors. we are commanded to love them as ourselves, and passage in my siggy line is not the only one that says so. there is no provision for asking ourselves whether they are here legally or not when we decide whether or not to love them.
finally, i would like to submit that just because something is illegal does not make it wrong. just because it's legal doesn't make it ok. you can ask the good samaritan, rosa parks, gandhi, dr. king, nelson mandela. they were all lawbreakers. and the horrendous things hitler did were perfectly legal in nazi germany.

barbara ehrenrich makes a similar point in the nation:

medicare and social security, and here i quote the website of the san diego aclu:
undocumented immigrants annually pay an estimated $7 billion more than they take out into social security, and $1.5 billion more into medicare.... a study by the national academy of sciences also found that tax payments generated by immigrants outweighed any costs associated with services used by immigrants.
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there is still the issue of the original "crime." if someone breaks into my property for the purpose of trashing and looting, i would be hell-bent on restitution. but if they break in for the purpose of cleaning it--scrubbing the bathroom, mowing the lawn--then, in my way of thinking anyway, the debt goes in the other direction.

i can't guarantee that all of my relatives from norway came here legally. they emigrated d/t poverty and lack of opportunity.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 7, 2007

Susan, I completely agree with you...anything like universal healthcare coverage (or any similar thing), if it is going to be offered to noncitizens (legal or otherwise) then of course it should be offered to US citizens.

I don't know how many people y'all have talked to, but all the illegal immigrants I've met, worked with, talked with, etc. would MUCH rather be here legally. But under current immigration law, they have no realistic chance of doing so.

So the ones that are already here, what do you suggest we do with them? The gov't has already made it clear they're not going to deport all however-many-million. They're probably just being realistic -- if we couldn't get half a million folks out of New Orleans after Katrina, people that wanted to be found, people concentrated all in one relatively small area -- what in the world makes us think we are going to find 12 million (conservative estimate) people nationwide who are not exactly waving their arms trying to be found? Mass deportation may sound really good, esp if you're Tom Tancredo, but it's just not realistic. You're talking about splitting up families -- parents from children, brothers and sisters, husbands from wives -- on a massive scale. So what do we do with them? Do we let them stay here illegally? Hasn't worked real well so far. Do we make them go home and start all over again, and wait 20 years for a visa? They won't go and we're back at square one. As much as it may rankle people to hear it, I say give them their papers (within certain parameters, of course) and move on.

I have no problem with those who want to enforce border security, that's all well and good. You can build a wall to China if you want to. But unless there is a realistic method of legal immigration, people will find ways around it. Desperation and hunger are huge motivators.

Keysnurse2008 · Aug 10, 2007

i have absolutely no problem with giving universal health care to people not citizens of our country, and not here legally.....as long as it is also available to our own citizens as well.
i am still paying off a $10,000 medical bill for my now 21 year old son, who spent two days in the hospital with pneumonia when he was 16. yes, i was working full time. no, i couldn't afford health insurance for him -- it was $583/month for the family plan. dad was supposed to be providing health insurance but never did. i was told i made $50 per year too much to qualify for our state's medicaid program. $50 dollars??!?
and why, might you ask, did he end up in the hospital? why wasn't i a responsible mother and treated him earlier? well one is that we didn't have insurance...and the other was that he got so dreadfully sick so quickly -- in 48 hours he went from being fine to almost being an icu admit.

susancoyotesfan...you are a perfect example of what my concern is!here in the us...our funds are being stretched ....we are f unding sooo many projects for every country it seems like....and i feel like until every us citizen is cared for with their basic needs met ...we are doing a huge disservice by allocating funds for other countries issues.you are working fulltime...trying to raise your child and a huge chunk of your $$$$$ is being spent by the gvt to provide free healthcare to those that have chosen to come over here illegally.so ..as more enter into the us...more free healthcare is provided....and the more "out of reach" your ability to attain adequate affordable healthcare for your family becomes.do illegals pay taxes...sure sales tax ....but they arent paying 25% of their check to taxes...and another 15-20% for healthcare insurance.most have no "verifiable " work...so they qualify for state welfare insurances.who pays for those programs?taxpayers do.things like this...can undermine a governments ability to care for its own citizens as this slowly has....and that is just wrong .imo.it doesnt mean that illegal immigrants are "bad people"...it just means that they have broken the law and need to eneter here legally .i too do not feel like all immigration laws are balanced...but...come on....castro is a dictator who kills those who speak out against him...so if those guys can make it here onto dry sand and then register with the gvt i am ok with it if the gvt is!bc they can get jobs ...the gvt knows they are here.same thing with the girls from somalia who were enduring sexual castration not so many years back...the gvt expedited their immigration process bc of that. so...at times i do think the gvt tries to do the most fair thing to those at "most risk of life/limb".most americans do...want to help abroad ....but we also....need to be able to afford to care for the needs of our own citizens too.and...i am totally for securing the borders to prevent overpopulation from those seeking to enter the country illegally.once they are here...we want them to be cared for.but ...this has gotten out of control folks to the point of it limiting our ability to care for our legal citizens. why...why do you think the gvt is limiting the number of visa's approved from belize/central america and mexico?and are they truly limiting visas?if i worked in the ins dept id probably fall out of my chair if i received a application from a mexican ..seriously folks.....issues like these can undermine a countries ability to care for its own citizens and our ability to help other countries with humanitarian efforts...and that is life.just as susancoyotesfan!

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 10, 2007

And are they truly limiting visas?If I worked in the INS dept Id probably fall out of my chair if I received a application from a mexican.

TN, there are plenty of Mexicans who apply for entry. And an overwhelming majority of those apps are denied. That was a pretty insensitive thing to say, and not based in fact. A recent issue of TIME magazine had a really interesting article and photo montage...worth 3 minutes of your time to read.

http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1630049,00.html

We seem to keep going in circles. Whether or not it's ok for people to use a fake SSN is another can of worms...but most people in this area (and I really don't know why we would be the exception) use them. And guess what? They get taxes taken out just like you and I do. I'm not saying no one gets paid under the table. It happens. But it happens to US citizen babysitters and yardcare people, etc. too. But a whopping majority of those illegal immigrants who get their taxes taken out don't get them back at the end of the year like you and I do. That may, you say, be fair since they are not here legally. Fine. But it takes away the argument that 'they don't pay any taxes but sales tax.' Oh yes, they do.

True story:

A friend of mine is married to a Mexican guy who has been here long enough to become a US citizen. A few years ago he wanted to bring his parents here on a relative visa, which is generally known among immigration circles to be the easiest way to get here. He & his wife applied for them and were denied. They applied for work visas, and for tourist visas. All denied. My friend wrote US senators, INS, she even wrote President Bush. Nothing. Finally, one of the US senators from our state contacted the US Embassy in Mexico City and was flat-out denied, no reason given. If these people -- English-speaking, decent education, enough money to support their family, and have a US senator working on their behalf -- if THEY can't get a visa for their relative to come here legally, then what chance do you think a poor farmer from middle-of-nowhere Mexico has for himself??

My friend's in-laws are here now. Just not legally, but not because they didn't try.

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 10, 2007

i too do not feel like all immigration laws are balanced...but...come on....castro is a dictator who kills those who speak out against him...so if those guys can make it here onto dry sand and then register with the gvt i am ok with it if the gvt is!bc they can get jobs ...the gvt knows they are here.same thing with the girls from somalia who were enduring sexual castration not so many years back...the gvt expedited their immigration process bc of that. so...at times i do think the gvt tries to do the most fair thing to those at "most risk of life/limb".

you think cuba is the only latin american country with a human rights record that sucks? how about venezuela, guatemala, honduras, mexico, el salvador, nicaragua, chile, and until recently, argentina. and i'm probably leaving a few out. ever heard of the civil war in guatemala that lasted 36 years? ever heard of the death squads in guatemala and el salvador that went after teachers, artists, medical workers a la the khmer rouge? ever heard of "las madres de plaza de mayo" in buenos aires? i watch the spanish language news where it seems that at least once a week, journalists trying to report the truth on crime and corruption in mexico are found murdered and left in the street. but cubans are the only ones allowed to come here illegally and then get legal. nobody else can. sorry, but that's not fair.

Keysnurse2008 · Aug 12, 2007

you think cuba is the only latin american country with a human rights record that sucks? how about venezuela, guatemala, honduras, mexico, el salvador, nicaragua, chile, and until recently, argentina. and i'm probably leaving a few out. ever heard of the civil war in guatemala that lasted 36 years? ever heard of the death squads in guatemala and el salvador that went after teachers, artists, medical workers a la the khmer rouge? ever heard of "las madres de plaza de mayo" in buenos aires? i watch the spanish language news where it seems that at least once a week, journalists trying to report the truth on crime and corruption in mexico are found murdered and left in the street. but cubans are the only ones allowed to come here illegally and then get legal. nobody else can. sorry, but that's not fair.

well...you have a point there.i cant argue with that.but..at what point...at what point do we "overextend" ourselves in an \effort to help other countries at the cost of our own citizens?it is well known that alot of americans dont have access to healthcare and needed medications...i cant help but wonder...when enough "helping" is enough?does anyone worrry that our overextension with other countries and their citizens is going to one day soon weaken the usa?does anyone else ever think about that?

Keysnurse2008 · Aug 12, 2007

I too agree that it isnt necessarily fair the way the immigration laws are set up.But..I have been the victim of idenity theft...friends of mine have had their SS#s stolen and used.I cant tell you HOW severly it destroys your life, your credit, your ability to qualify for simple things like a home.So when you say...they do pay taxes and use false SS#'s I cringe!They do use those Social security numbers! They use them to qualify for lease agreements, cars , credit etc.They destroy ...absolutely destroy....your life.So...it really is so unfair to americans ....SOME not all ...but some use stolen ss#s and I cant tell you the devastation it causes...so when you say "they do pay taxes" just by using fake ss#'s...it makes me feel like you dont truly understand the complete devastation that causes.So there are 2 ways to see this.....what we are talking about "USING FAKE SSnumbers"...isnt some "victimless crime.It can destroy.....destroy your life and your ability to provide a home for your kids.It can and does reek havoc....

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 12, 2007

I'm not saying that it's ok one way or the other to use SSNs for work purposes. I'm just refuting the "they don't pay taxes" argument. However, I don't know a single illegal immigrant -- and I know a lot -- that has used a SSN for anything, ANYTHING other than getting a job. I'm not saying that it can't, doesn't, or won't happen, but it's not the majority of people. And how is it any more wrong if the person stealing my identity is an illegal immigrant than a homegrown American? If it's wrong it's wrong, period. Immigration status of the identity thief is a secondary issue for me.

There is a big difference IMO between using a SSN just to get a job and using it to finance a house, buy a car, get a credit card. Right or wrong, they are still paying taxes.

Again, I'm not condoning it. I'm just saying there is a difference. And, as previously stated, if it were easier for people to get here to begin with, we might not be having this conversation.

I don't understand why it's so difficult to put yourself in the shoes of another and see that there but for the grace of God. Why does compassion have to stop in America? I don't get it.

kcochrane · Aug 13, 2007

Fake SSN are flagged and employers are given no-match letters. Most ignore them since there are really no penalties. But the law is supposed to change soon with $10,000 penalty per unfixed no-match letter. This will probably create more stolen SSNs.

Stolen SSNs by illegal immigrants are on average shared by 30 people. Now maybe some are only using them for job, but not all illegal immigrants are honest. Even those that are honest might feel the temptation to use the ssn for credit. What could it hurt as long as they are paying the bill? Try going for a job and finding out you can't get hired because someone else is using your number. And if you are the unlucky one that does get an IRS bill with penalites and interest on income you never earned, believe me it will be a nightmare to fix and you probably be financially ruined before it is fixed. At present I think the figure is 7 million SSNs stolen by illegal immigrants. The biggest problem is that you will never probably catch the person doing this, because they don't exist. At least with home-growns we have a chance since they do have an identity. I don't know about you, but I don't care how honest an illegal is, I don't want to share my SSN. I have no problem with you sharing yours if you would like.

I don't think there is lack of compassion here for illegals. Just the realization that things need to be fixed. For the security of the country, the citizens and the illegals themselves. Since they estimate that 5% of jobs are held by illegals, it would be probably be a good place to start with additional work visas.

I think TNNURSE has brought up a good question. What exactly is the threshold? Do we take anyone?

Elvish, BSN, DNP, RN, NP · Aug 13, 2007

I'm not out waving around my SS card for the taking, don't get me wrong. But if it's wrong, it's still wrong no matter who's doing it. My identity is just as stolen, my credit is just as ruined whether it's an illegal immigrant or a US citizen.

I don't think taking on more people will be a problem, really, if we make it easier for people to get here. People in the media/news/talk radio would have you believe it's simple as walking up to a kiosk, filling out a form, maybe a couple hundred bucks, and you're here. Not so at all. Not going to repeat all that for the hundredeth time. I think if people can realistically get here legally, we will have people who: 1) will not be afraid to open bank accounts and won't be carrying cash and exposing themselves to robbery (reduction in crime??); 2) will be getting valid drivers licenses and insurance 3) will be able to work decent jobs that will give them enough to support their family, while also giving them free time 4) to learn English fairly rapidly. The gov't would know exactly who's here and since when. EVERYbody can get taxes taken out and contribute. There would be no need for fake SSNs.

If it were easier to get here legally, everybody would win. As Spacenurse says, when everybody does better, everybody does better.

Kcochrane, where did you get the numbers for your post about how many people share a SSN and how many people use fake ones? Just curious, I'd like to check it out for myself.

jyoung1950 · Aug 13, 2007

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20070625/ehrenreich

. . . . .The only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. First, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in America will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to Medicare and Social Security, a . . . . .

I'm a little confused. Since when does anyone get reimbursed for their contributions to SS & Medicare of they aren't around to enjoy the benefits of old age? For instance, if I die when I'm 55, my heirs don't get a reimbursement on all the money I've contributed to SS & Medicare. Is this magazine suggesting that illegal immigrants should get all their money back?

jyoung1950 · Aug 13, 2007

. . . . . I don't know how many people y'all have talked to, but all the illegal immigrants I've met, worked with, talked with, etc. would MUCH rather be here legally. But under current immigration law, they have no realistic chance of doing so. . . . .

Why not? I work with many people who are from other countries who became citizens of the U.S. under the current immigration law.

Rather than spend a whole lot of money over our border, the way to solve things is to fine companies who hire illegals. That is against the law also. And they probably are also paying them bare minimum wage or probably alot of them under the table.

And in this situation, is it right that jobs that used to pay more than minimum wage are out of reach to citizens of this country.

I've read posts on this board concerned that foreign nurses could quite possibly bring down the wages of the rest of the nurses who were born, raised and educated here. Looks like it's a big deal when it comes to our choice of occupation but too bad for the American carpenter or landscaper or farm worker. Too bad for those who used to like the work they did but can't do it or afford it anymore because of the influx of cheap illegal immigrant labor bringing down the wage.

They are here because their own country - Mexico - won't enable an environment of fair wages and work. That is a terrible shame, I agree.